She:kon all,

Oh gosh, well I'm hesitant to walk into this discussion since I've
primarily avoided the whole thing on social media since as a BIPOC person
it's exhausting and emotionally upsetting but I suppose I don't get the
privilege of thinking of this as a philosophical discussion. I can't
address every point in this discussion - I'm very glad it is happening
though and read all of the comments with great interest - in fact this is
my first ever response to a MUSEUM-L thread.

Two years ago we had this "debate" in my History of Human Rights Course - I
was the only BIPOC person in the conversation in a cohort of history MA's
and PhD students - 20 of us and I'm white passing and I was the only one
arguing that not only are many of the statues historically inaccurate they
are also bad art and perpetuate problematic myths.

Thank you for posting the well thought out responses to the idea of these
statues being put in museums and the challenges it presents (also museums
are not neutral - an excellent and important point).

To all those commenting on the ignorance or "purity of history" there is no
such thing as pure history even we as museum professionals and historians
bring a biase. History is taught, studied and thought about within the
confines (values, limitations, ethics) of our own time and what our
communities prioritize - what we write, preserve, and discuss is always
biased - so the argument that this is re-writing history is a fallacy - we
all know that even historic "primary" documents are biased - so perhaps we
should all get off our own "high horses" and reflect on that - there is no
pure history.

James Fennimore Cooper and Cooperstown is a terrible example of historical
preservation (sorry to call this one out but it particularly annoys me) -
as an Indigenous scholar who studied at the Fenimore museum for a week I
was appalled by the lack of information or blatant racism displayed by
historic markers and monuments in this town - which is in the middle of
Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / Iroquois) territory - there is a "native
burial mound" with a plaque, "native hunter" statue and a plaque extolling
the virtues of the Clinton Sullivan campaign.

Finally something that stands out to me is that all of these statues (on
public or private land) are all on Indigenous land - yes we are still here
we are still have nations and governance systems, languages, ceremonies,
food systems - sometimes imperfect thanks colonial trauma - but even in the
US thanks to Marshall (who of course was acting in his own best interests)
we are recognized as nations - and regardless of whether we have been
disposed from the land through theft or (primarily fraudulent) treaties we
are still here and belong to the land and have a responsibility to the land
- so to talk about "public land / private land" that the statues are on is
also a fallacy predicated on colonial narratives.

For non BIPOC folks perhaps it is time to reflect that the current level of
discomfort, perceived danger (to monuments to dead white guys), and social
upheaval is nothing compared to the day to day acts of racism,
marginalization, violence, systemic injustice and historical trauma faced
by Black, Indigenous, People of Colour. The change we are seeing is long
overdue - it's appalling it took a pandemic for us to have the time to
reflect on this and discuss it - and hopefully make positive change - but I
for one am grateful that we are living in this time.

Heather


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:26 AM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Who said it wasn't. and if you think the RED GUARD was just destroying
> Buddhas that's as disgusting a level understanding for which the KKK could
> have only hope to achieve.  I can send pictures from the cultural
> revolution given to me by those that survived the red guard. Again I have
> walked the home of the RED GUARD. The KKK might have killed as many people
> ever as ONE WEEK of the Red Guard if that many.  let's see 5000 total
> lynchings in recorded US history including the 1400 or so nonblacks
> lynched. Do you think that compares to this? The Red Guard Killed(murdered
> in public extrajudicial) as many as 230,000 in TWO YEARS.
> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1969051/former-red-guards-remember-time-when-killing-was-normal
> If you do then I have no words for you. What I can tell you is that
> Michael and those destroying historical items are using the same propaganda
> and making the same statements as the Red Guard.  Why do I keep bringing up
> the RED GUARD because people keep using the same propaganda?
>
> But hey congrats on the racist bit about a few buddhas.
>
> Randy S. Little
>
> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>*
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:57 PM Elizabeth Walton <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> I am a former curator of history at Stone Mountain Park. I also grew up
>> in the Stone Mountain area and it was a huge part of my childhood.
>> Comparing it to an ancient Buddha is... I can't even find words to express
>> how wrong that is.
>>
>> To be clear, the UDC did not fully fund the carving on Stone Mountain.
>> Helen Plane and the UDC did raise funds and the first carving was a
>> complete failure due to lack of funding and carving was stopped in 1925 and
>> again in 1928. Decades later, as a statement against segregation, The state
>> of Georgia took over the project and the land.Until 1960 the KKK had the
>> legal right to hold rallies on the property in perpetuity. They still held
>> rallies well into the 1980's. At that point the surrounding area
>> demographics shifted.
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>>
>> "Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that year,
>> Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations
>> as they desired.[29]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-29> The
>> influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a
>> carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. She
>> suggested in a letter to the first sculptor, Gutzon Borglum:
>>
>> I feel it is due to the Klan[,] which saved us from Negro dominations
>> [sic] and carpetbag <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger> rule,
>> that it be immortalized on Stone Mountain. Why not represent a small group
>> of them in their nightly uniform approaching in the distance?[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21
>> [20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Encycl-20>
>>
>> The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association
>> (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and
>> Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack
>> the SMCMA with Klan members.[30]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-ngeorgia.com-30> The
>> SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, continued
>> fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal
>> government, which in 1925 issued special fifty-cent coins
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Commemorative_Coin> with
>> the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them."
>>
>> "In response to Brown v. Board of Education
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education> of 1954 and
>> the birth of the Civil Rights Movement
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Movement>, in 1958, at the
>> urging of segregationist Governor Marvin Griffin
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Griffin>,[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 the
>> Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain at a
>> price of $1.125 million. In 1963 Walker Hancock
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Hancock> was selected to complete
>> the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by Roy
>> Faulkner
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roy_Faulkner_(sculptor)&action=edit&redlink=1>,
>> who in 1985 opened the Stone Mountain Carving Museum (now closed) on nearby
>> Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history.[21]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-21> The carving
>> was completed on March 3, 1972.[22]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-SMHistory-22> An
>> extensive archival collection related to the project is now at Emory
>> University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University>, with the
>> bulk of the materials dating from 1915 to 1930; the finding aid
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_aid> provides a history of the
>> project, and an index of the papers contained in the collection.[18]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Emory-18>
>>
>> Stone Mountain Park officially opened on April 14, 1965 – 100 years to
>> the day after Lincoln's assassination
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Abraham_Lincoln>.[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6> Four
>> flags of the Confederacy
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America> are flown.
>> [23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-23> The
>> Stone Mountain Memorial Lawn "contains...thirteen terraces — one for each
>> Confederate state.... Each terrace flies the flag that the state flew as
>> member of the Confederacy."[24
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Myajc-24>"
>>
>>
>> The land the park is on is now an independent organization called the
>> Stone MOuntain Memorial Association that is self funded through
>> parking fees. The attractions are managed through Herschend
>> Entertainment.
>>
>> It was 100% started to celebrate not just the Confederacy but also the
>> KKK.
>>
>> People who are promoting removal do not seem to understand how large it
>> is. It is larger than Mount Rushmore.
>>
>> I do not promote removal but it should be interpreted honestly. Its
>> entire creation was racist.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:18 PM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Let just go with Teddy for a second from your last sentence. So from
>>> what you said. you clearly got what actually happened in history. We
>>> conquered the native people of the landmass. AND TO THIS DAY mistreat them.
>>> OBAMA violated codified treaties.  Please never mention him again because
>>> of this if you approve of the removal of Teddy R. . oye.  Many of the
>>> Southern statues were originally paid for and build by PRIVATE FUNDS
>>> originally on private land. Stone Mountain by the D.O.C.  So it clearly
>>> shows how those people felt at a point in history when they RAISED THE
>>> FUNDS AND CARVED THE STATUE.  I bet your brain melts when you look at an
>>> east Asian map and see the markers for Buddhist temples.  Even though that
>>> is the symbol used for nearly 1500 years in japan alone.
>>> Oh just curious when do we give back Hawaii since we very clearly stole
>>> the entire island chain.
>>>
>>> My wife is asking when you are planning to remove all the FDR statues
>>> from public display. She has an issue with him TAKING the property of
>>> Americans. Holding them in camps in such wonderful locations such as Tulle
>>> Lake CA. and then giving them $25 when released to return to none of their
>>> property existing or having been sold and claimed by others.
>>>
>>> I'm going to guess you have never moved around very much.
>>>
>>> Ok now that we have rehashed the same arguments made by the RED GUARD
>>> again.  I'm guessing that you somehow see your point of view as more
>>> justified then theirs. It is not. Hey Mikey watch this video turn on
>>> subtitles and I can promise you that it is the sentiment of most Japanese.
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLrpa1ojeKs&pp=wgIECgIIAQ%3D%3D
>>>
>>>
>>> Randy S. Little
>>> http://www.rslittle.com/
>>> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:11 PM Michael Rebman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> There has been debate for decades about most of these statues in
>>>> question.  There have been public debates and lawsuits.  Various southern
>>>> states passed state-level laws within the past twenty years either
>>>> protecting statues (like North Carolina) or revoking protections for
>>>> statues (like Virginia).  The calls for taking down the statues and name
>>>> dedications of Oñate started in the 1990s and earlier.  This is not a
>>>> sudden debate that has appeared overnight, and I do not think anybody in
>>>> the Museum-L listserv has endorsed vandalism or destruction of property.
>>>>
>>>> Museum exhibits are also different from public art in that an exhibit
>>>> reflects the views of the exhibit designers, while public art serves as a
>>>> public endorsement of the subject matter by the local government and by
>>>> taxpayers.  Or if it is on private property, it acts as an endorsement by
>>>> the owners of the private property.  Someone who looks at a statue of Jonas
>>>> Salk would not gain knowledge of modern medicine, and someone who looks at
>>>> a statue of James Fennimore Cooper would not gain knowledge of early
>>>> American prose, but those viewers would know that the localities endorse
>>>> the subjects of the statues, and the viewers might be inclined to
>>>> subsequently learn more about the subjects.  A plaque at the foot or
>>>> pedestal of the statue would not be able to contain suitable and nuanced
>>>> information, just a short summary of why the subject is revered by the
>>>> town.  A person unfamiliar with James Fennimore Cooper would see the
>>>> statue, read the plaque, and simply understand that a guy lived in that
>>>> town a few hundred years ago and wrote books, and the town is glad that the
>>>> author lived there.  That is the entire purpose of non-artistic and
>>>> non-religious statuary, to revere and celebrate the subject of the statue.
>>>> The viewers are not learning about the subjects themselves, but about
>>>> attitudes held about the subjects.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, someone viewing a statue of Roosevelt on horseback in an attempt
>>>> at a Rough Rider uniform, in front of a partially-naked African man and a
>>>> slightly more clothed Native American man, both of whom are carrying
>>>> Roosevelt's gear, would come to the conclusion that the institution that
>>>> holds such a statue on public display outside would be fine with the
>>>> attitudes on colonialism and the White Man's Burden that the statue
>>>> conveys.  Had it been a statue of Roosevelt hiking through the forest with
>>>> a walking stick, that would be a different matter.  Had it been a statue of
>>>> Roosevelt standing between the Tsar of Russia and the Emperor of Japan,
>>>> forcing them to shake hands, that would also be a different matter.
>>>> However, statues even with plaques do not convey educational information
>>>> and nuance about subject matters, just the overall sense of what attitude
>>>> people should have about the subject matters.  A display of statues in a
>>>> museum could have text panels, videos, and docents to provide details.  A
>>>> statue in a park, in a public square, or at the front door of a courthouse
>>>> or city hall would simply send the message that the people of that
>>>> particular town consider the subject to be worthy of veneration, leaving it
>>>> up to the viewer to find out why.  That is why Black people have spent the
>>>> past few decades trying to relocate or store away the statues of Lee and
>>>> Forrest, and why Native Americans have been trying for decades to remove
>>>> statues of Oñate and Jackson.  Because those statues represent people who
>>>> engaged in oppressive acts against minorities, from treason in furtherance
>>>> of protecting slavery to slave trading to massacres to ethnic cleansing and
>>>> genocide.
>>>>
>>>> The overall problem is not that the statues represent long-dead people
>>>> who might be disliked by some living people.  And it is also not that the
>>>> statues represent good people who might have slipped up once or twice.  It
>>>> is that the statues in question celebrate people as they were doing things
>>>> that run against American ideals, and are posed and dressed to represent
>>>> those very specific terrible things.  The statues of Lee and Forrest always
>>>> show them in Confederate uniforms, not in civilian clothes while delivering
>>>> turkeys to poor people on Christmas.  The statues of Oñate show him in
>>>> armor scouting around and fighting in New Mexico, not sitting around a
>>>> fireplace telling stories to his children.  The crowning achievements of
>>>> Lee and Forrest were their battlefield victories in their war against the
>>>> United States, while Oñate's crowning achievement was massacring hundreds
>>>> of Native Americans and chopping off the feet of survivors, and Jackson's
>>>> crowning achievement was the ethnic cleansing of the southeast and the
>>>> deaths of thousands of Native Americans.  These are not simply "flaws", but
>>>> reprehensible acts that run contrary to the values of liberty, equality,
>>>> and justice.  The Apollo astronauts had flaws, but statues of astronauts
>>>> would celebrate space exploration and not whatever flaws they had.  The
>>>> same goes for Martin Luther King Jr., Sally Ride, Mary Golda Ross, and
>>>> Doris Miller, and their extraordinary achievements as common people.  A
>>>> statue of a Confederate general on horseback in uniform inherently
>>>> celebrates a reprehensible flaw.
>>>>
>>>> That is why people have been calling for statue removal for decades.
>>>> The statues represent a very visual message about the towns that have those
>>>> statues, and the statues present a very strong message to people who view
>>>> them.  The statues of Lee and Forrest tell viewers, especially Black
>>>> viewers, that "this town believes in slavery and the oppression of Black
>>>> people and wishes the south had won".  The statues of Oñate and Grant
>>>> boldly state to Native Americans that "you have been conquered".  The
>>>> American Museum of Natural History saw the message conveyed by that
>>>> particular statue of Roosevelt, and decided to cease displaying it in a
>>>> public square.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Michael R. <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:56 PM Markusen, Bruce <
>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How would you like it if citizens came into your Museum and simply
>>>>> tore down an exhibit they considered offensive, without debate, without
>>>>> argument, without any other consideration?
>>>>>
>>>>
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-- 
Heather George

PhD Candidate, History
M.A. Public History
B.A. Hon History and Indigenous Studies
O.C.G.C Museum Management and Curatorship

View my LinkedIn Profile:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115
<https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115>

*I acknowledge that I live and work on the traditional territories of the
Attawandaron (Neutral), Anishnaabeg, and Haudenosaunee (Six Nations /
Iroquois) Nations. The University of Waterloo is situated on the Haldimand
Tract, land promised to the Haudenosaunee by Governor Haldimand in 1784,
which includes six miles on each side of the Grand River. *

*For general information about Indigenous
history please visit: https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home
<https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home>/ *

*For more information about Six Nations of the Grand River Land
claims please read: http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf
<http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf>*

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