What this "discussion" has shown me, unfortunately, is that people seem to
have forgotten how to discuss anything in a civil and objective manner. I'm
embarrassed by the number of put-downs, the name calling, and the snarky,
self-righteous responses. Perhaps it's a good thing museum professionals
and historians aren't leading this national conversation, although i might
have thought previously that if any group had the knowledge and experience
to do so, this would be it.

Elizabeth Simon

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 3:50 PM Antonia Krajina <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Saying dead white guys is a fact, not an opinion, and definitely not a
> racist comment. The fact that you take offence at this but want to take a
> right for people to self-determine how they wish to be called speaks
> volumes.
>
> The fact that one doesn’t spell a word right, doesn’t take away from the
> validity of their opinion - which is also a fact that any teacher can tell
> you - unless your opinion only mattered when you started spelling ALL your
> words correctly. And one doesn’t have to spend a second somewhere to have
> an opinion on something - Europeans have spent much less time in places
> they colonized before they decided to devalue and devastate them, yet we
> don’t seem to see as a big of a problem with that.
>
> The mess that our Euro-centric thinking and our white culture brought onto
> the world is glaringly obvious to anyone who is willing to listen, at the
> very least, so there is no excuse for you trying to discredit a fellow
> professional and a scholar.
>
> Antonia Krajina
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 3:37 PM Markusen, Bruce <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> This is a response to Heather George:
>>
>>
>>
>> With regard to the plaques and statues in Cooperstown, I mentioned only
>> the statue of James Fenimore Cooper, which is probably the most prominent
>> statue in the village and which is located in close proximity to the Hall
>> of Fame, our most prominent institution. There is nothing inappropriate
>> about this statue of Mr. Cooper or the wording on the plaque. (There has
>> been discussion locally about the use of the word “Indian” on other statues
>> in Cooperstown, but that was not the subject of my original post on
>> Tuesday).
>>
>>
>>
>> Heather, I might be willing to give you a little bit more credibility on
>> the subject of Cooper and Cooperstown if you would have bothered to spell
>> Mr. Cooper’s name properly. His middle name, which he added later in life
>> as a tribute to his mother, is spelled “Fenimore” and not “Fennimore.” The
>> Fenimore Art Museum, now located on the site of the Fenimore farm, his
>> onetime residence, bears his name. If you can’t even get this basic piece
>> of information right—the spelling of a famous American writer’s name—why
>> should I trust your argument on anything else related to James Fenimore
>> Cooper and the depictions of Cooperstown’s rich history?
>>
>>
>>
>> You mentioned that you are an Indigenous scholar, and I am sure that you
>> know far, far more about the subject than I do. With regard to your
>> experience in Cooperstown, you also mentioned that you were here for about
>> a week. In contrast, I have lived in Cooperstown for 24 years, and have
>> been doing tours of our village since 2004. I will defer to you on the
>> subject of Indigenous depictions (though I’m not certain why you take such
>> offense to the word “Native” or “Native American), but will point out that
>> there are many other memorials in our village on an array of subjects and
>> themes, including memorials to World War I and II, to baseball (The Sandlot
>> Kid, Roy Campanella, Johnny Podres, Satchel Paige, and the All-American
>> Girls Professional Baseball League), and to members of the Cooper family.
>> There is nothing racist or offensive about any of these statues contained
>> within our village. If anything, the statues are a sign of inclusivity,
>> given that Campanella and Paige were both African American, along with the
>> decision to honor the women of the All-American League. (We also have a
>> side street named after Bud Fowler, the first African-American player in
>> the history of professional baseball.)
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to express displeasure with the Indigenous statues and
>> memorials of Cooperstown, that is fine and well, but to make such a blanket
>> dismissal of the village of Cooperstown and its famed author is both
>> inaccurate and unfair.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, I might suggest using language other than your flippant reference
>> to “dead white guys,” which borders on offensive, if not racist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Markusen
>>
>> Cooperstown, NY
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On
>> Behalf Of *Lundgren, Jodi
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 2:39 PM
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: [MUSEUM-L] [AASLH Hist House Mus] Fake Information Being
>> Distributed About Historic Sites & Museums
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Heather!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> *On Behalf
>> Of *Heather George
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 8:07 AM
>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> *Subject:* Re: [MUSEUM-L] [AASLH Hist House Mus] Fake Information Being
>> Distributed About Historic Sites & Museums
>>
>>
>>
>> She:kon all,
>>
>> Oh gosh, well I'm hesitant to walk into this discussion since I've
>> primarily avoided the whole thing on social media since as a BIPOC person
>> it's exhausting and emotionally upsetting but I suppose I don't get the
>> privilege of thinking of this as a philosophical discussion. I can't
>> address every point in this discussion - I'm very glad it is happening
>> though and read all of the comments with great interest - in fact this is
>> my first ever response to a MUSEUM-L thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> Two years ago we had this "debate" in my History of Human Rights Course -
>> I was the only BIPOC person in the conversation in a cohort of history MA's
>> and PhD students - 20 of us and I'm white passing and I was the only one
>> arguing that not only are many of the statues historically inaccurate they
>> are also bad art and perpetuate problematic myths.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for posting the well thought out responses to the idea of these
>> statues being put in museums and the challenges it presents (also museums
>> are not neutral - an excellent and important point).
>>
>>
>>
>> To all those commenting on the ignorance or "purity of history" there is
>> no such thing as pure history even we as museum professionals and
>> historians bring a biase. History is taught, studied and thought about
>> within the confines (values, limitations, ethics) of our own time and what
>> our communities prioritize - what we write, preserve, and discuss is always
>> biased - so the argument that this is re-writing history is a fallacy - we
>> all know that even historic "primary" documents are biased - so perhaps we
>> should all get off our own "high horses" and reflect on that - there is no
>> pure history.
>>
>>
>>
>> James Fennimore Cooper and Cooperstown is a terrible example of
>> historical preservation (sorry to call this one out but it particularly
>> annoys me) - as an Indigenous scholar who studied at the Fenimore museum
>> for a week I was appalled by the lack of information or blatant racism
>> displayed by historic markers and monuments in this town - which is in the
>> middle of Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / Iroquois) territory - there is a
>> "native burial mound" with a plaque, "native hunter" statue and a plaque
>> extolling the virtues of the Clinton Sullivan campaign.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally something that stands out to me is that all of these statues (on
>> public or private land) are all on Indigenous land - yes we are still here
>> we are still have nations and governance systems, languages, ceremonies,
>> food systems - sometimes imperfect thanks colonial trauma - but even in the
>> US thanks to Marshall (who of course was acting in his own best interests)
>> we are recognized as nations - and regardless of whether we have been
>> disposed from the land through theft or (primarily fraudulent) treaties we
>> are still here and belong to the land and have a responsibility to the land
>> - so to talk about "public land / private land" that the statues are on is
>> also a fallacy predicated on colonial narratives.
>>
>>
>>
>> For non BIPOC folks perhaps it is time to reflect that the current level
>> of discomfort, perceived danger (to monuments to dead white guys), and
>> social upheaval is nothing compared to the day to day acts of racism,
>> marginalization, violence, systemic injustice and historical trauma faced
>> by Black, Indigenous, People of Colour. The change we are seeing is long
>> overdue - it's appalling it took a pandemic for us to have the time to
>> reflect on this and discuss it - and hopefully make positive change - but I
>> for one am grateful that we are living in this time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Heather
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:26 AM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Who said it wasn't. and if you think the RED GUARD was just destroying
>> Buddhas that's as disgusting a level understanding for which the KKK could
>> have only hope to achieve.  I can send pictures from the cultural
>> revolution given to me by those that survived the red guard. Again I have
>> walked the home of the RED GUARD. The KKK might have killed as many people
>> ever as ONE WEEK of the Red Guard if that many.  let's see 5000 total
>> lynchings in recorded US history including the 1400 or so nonblacks
>> lynched. Do you think that compares to this? The Red Guard Killed(murdered
>> in public extrajudicial) as many as 230,000 in TWO YEARS.
>> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1969051/former-red-guards-remember-time-when-killing-was-normal
>>
>> If you do then I have no words for you. What I can tell you is that
>> Michael and those destroying historical items are using the same propaganda
>> and making the same statements as the Red Guard.  Why do I keep bringing up
>> the RED GUARD because people keep using the same propaganda?
>>
>> But hey congrats on the racist bit about a few buddhas.
>>
>>
>> Randy S. Little
>>
>> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:57 PM Elizabeth Walton <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I am a former curator of history at Stone Mountain Park. I also grew up
>> in the Stone Mountain area and it was a huge part of my childhood.
>> Comparing it to an ancient Buddha is... I can't even find words to express
>> how wrong that is.
>>
>> To be clear, the UDC did not fully fund the carving on Stone Mountain.
>> Helen Plane and the UDC did raise funds and the first carving was a
>> complete failure due to lack of funding and carving was stopped in 1925 and
>> again in 1928. Decades later, as a statement against segregation, The state
>> of Georgia took over the project and the land.Until 1960 the KKK had the
>> legal right to hold rallies on the property in perpetuity. They still held
>> rallies well into the 1980's. At that point the surrounding area
>> demographics shifted.
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>>
>> "Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that year,
>> Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations
>> as they desired.[29]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-29> The
>> influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a
>> carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. She
>> suggested in a letter to the first sculptor, Gutzon Borglum:
>>
>> I feel it is due to the Klan[,] which saved us from Negro dominations
>> [sic] and carpetbag <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger> rule,
>> that it be immortalized on Stone Mountain. Why not represent a small group
>> of them in their nightly uniform approaching in the distance?[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21
>> [20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Encycl-20>
>>
>> The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association
>> (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and
>> Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack
>> the SMCMA with Klan members.[30]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-ngeorgia.com-30> The
>> SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, continued
>> fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal
>> government, which in 1925 issued special fifty-cent coins
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Commemorative_Coin> with
>> the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them."
>>
>> "In response to Brown v. Board of Education
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education> of 1954 and
>> the birth of the Civil Rights Movement
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Movement>, in 1958, at the
>> urging of segregationist Governor Marvin Griffin
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Griffin>,[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 the
>> Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain at a
>> price of $1.125 million. In 1963 Walker Hancock
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Hancock> was selected to complete
>> the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by Roy
>> Faulkner
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roy_Faulkner_(sculptor)&action=edit&redlink=1>,
>> who in 1985 opened the Stone Mountain Carving Museum (now closed) on nearby
>> Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history.[21]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-21> The carving
>> was completed on March 3, 1972.[22]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-SMHistory-22> An
>> extensive archival collection related to the project is now at Emory
>> University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University>, with the
>> bulk of the materials dating from 1915 to 1930; the finding aid
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_aid> provides a history of the
>> project, and an index of the papers contained in the collection.[18]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Emory-18>
>>
>> Stone Mountain Park officially opened on April 14, 1965 – 100 years to
>> the day after Lincoln's assassination
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Abraham_Lincoln>.[6]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6> Four
>> flags of the Confederacy
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America> are flown.
>> [23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-23> The
>> Stone Mountain Memorial Lawn "contains...thirteen terraces — one for each
>> Confederate state.... Each terrace flies the flag that the state flew as
>> member of the Confederacy."[24
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Myajc-24>"
>>
>>
>> The land the park is on is now an independent organization called the
>> Stone MOuntain Memorial Association that is self funded through
>> parking fees. The attractions are managed through Herschend
>> Entertainment.
>>
>> It was 100% started to celebrate not just the Confederacy but also the
>> KKK.
>>
>> People who are promoting removal do not seem to understand how large it
>> is. It is larger than Mount Rushmore.
>>
>> I do not promote removal but it should be interpreted honestly. Its
>> entire creation was racist.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:18 PM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Let just go with Teddy for a second from your last sentence. So from what
>> you said. you clearly got what actually happened in history. We conquered
>> the native people of the landmass. AND TO THIS DAY mistreat them. OBAMA
>> violated codified treaties.  Please never mention him again because of this
>> if you approve of the removal of Teddy R. . oye.  Many of the Southern
>> statues were originally paid for and build by PRIVATE FUNDS originally on
>> private land. Stone Mountain by the D.O.C.  So it clearly shows how those
>> people felt at a point in history when they RAISED THE FUNDS AND CARVED THE
>> STATUE.  I bet your brain melts when you look at an east Asian map and see
>> the markers for Buddhist temples.  Even though that is the symbol used for
>> nearly 1500 years in japan alone.
>>
>> Oh just curious when do we give back Hawaii since we very clearly stole
>> the entire island chain.
>>
>> My wife is asking when you are planning to remove all the FDR statues
>> from public display. She has an issue with him TAKING the property of
>> Americans. Holding them in camps in such wonderful locations such as Tulle
>> Lake CA. and then giving them $25 when released to return to none of their
>> property existing or having been sold and claimed by others.
>>
>> I'm going to guess you have never moved around very much.
>>
>> Ok now that we have rehashed the same arguments made by the RED GUARD
>> again.  I'm guessing that you somehow see your point of view as more
>> justified then theirs. It is not. Hey Mikey watch this video turn on
>> subtitles and I can promise you that it is the sentiment of most Japanese.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLrpa1ojeKs&pp=wgIECgIIAQ%3D%3D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy S. Little
>> http://www.rslittle.com/
>>
>> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:11 PM Michael Rebman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>>
>> There has been debate for decades about most of these statues in
>> question.  There have been public debates and lawsuits.  Various southern
>> states passed state-level laws within the past twenty years either
>> protecting statues (like North Carolina) or revoking protections for
>> statues (like Virginia).  The calls for taking down the statues and name
>> dedications of Oñate started in the 1990s and earlier.  This is not a
>> sudden debate that has appeared overnight, and I do not think anybody in
>> the Museum-L listserv has endorsed vandalism or destruction of property.
>>
>>
>>
>> Museum exhibits are also different from public art in that an exhibit
>> reflects the views of the exhibit designers, while public art serves as a
>> public endorsement of the subject matter by the local government and by
>> taxpayers.  Or if it is on private property, it acts as an endorsement by
>> the owners of the private property.  Someone who looks at a statue of Jonas
>> Salk would not gain knowledge of modern medicine, and someone who looks at
>> a statue of James Fennimore Cooper would not gain knowledge of early
>> American prose, but those viewers would know that the localities endorse
>> the subjects of the statues, and the viewers might be inclined to
>> subsequently learn more about the subjects.  A plaque at the foot or
>> pedestal of the statue would not be able to contain suitable and nuanced
>> information, just a short summary of why the subject is revered by the
>> town.  A person unfamiliar with James Fennimore Cooper would see the
>> statue, read the plaque, and simply understand that a guy lived in that
>> town a few hundred years ago and wrote books, and the town is glad that the
>> author lived there.  That is the entire purpose of non-artistic and
>> non-religious statuary, to revere and celebrate the subject of the statue.
>> The viewers are not learning about the subjects themselves, but about
>> attitudes held about the subjects.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thus, someone viewing a statue of Roosevelt on horseback in an attempt at
>> a Rough Rider uniform, in front of a partially-naked African man and a
>> slightly more clothed Native American man, both of whom are carrying
>> Roosevelt's gear, would come to the conclusion that the institution that
>> holds such a statue on public display outside would be fine with the
>> attitudes on colonialism and the White Man's Burden that the statue
>> conveys.  Had it been a statue of Roosevelt hiking through the forest with
>> a walking stick, that would be a different matter.  Had it been a statue of
>> Roosevelt standing between the Tsar of Russia and the Emperor of Japan,
>> forcing them to shake hands, that would also be a different matter.
>> However, statues even with plaques do not convey educational information
>> and nuance about subject matters, just the overall sense of what attitude
>> people should have about the subject matters.  A display of statues in a
>> museum could have text panels, videos, and docents to provide details.  A
>> statue in a park, in a public square, or at the front door of a courthouse
>> or city hall would simply send the message that the people of that
>> particular town consider the subject to be worthy of veneration, leaving it
>> up to the viewer to find out why.  That is why Black people have spent the
>> past few decades trying to relocate or store away the statues of Lee and
>> Forrest, and why Native Americans have been trying for decades to remove
>> statues of Oñate and Jackson.  Because those statues represent people who
>> engaged in oppressive acts against minorities, from treason in furtherance
>> of protecting slavery to slave trading to massacres to ethnic cleansing and
>> genocide.
>>
>>
>>
>> The overall problem is not that the statues represent long-dead people
>> who might be disliked by some living people.  And it is also not that the
>> statues represent good people who might have slipped up once or twice.  It
>> is that the statues in question celebrate people as they were doing things
>> that run against American ideals, and are posed and dressed to represent
>> those very specific terrible things.  The statues of Lee and Forrest always
>> show them in Confederate uniforms, not in civilian clothes while delivering
>> turkeys to poor people on Christmas.  The statues of Oñate show him in
>> armor scouting around and fighting in New Mexico, not sitting around a
>> fireplace telling stories to his children.  The crowning achievements of
>> Lee and Forrest were their battlefield victories in their war against the
>> United States, while Oñate's crowning achievement was massacring hundreds
>> of Native Americans and chopping off the feet of survivors, and Jackson's
>> crowning achievement was the ethnic cleansing of the southeast and the
>> deaths of thousands of Native Americans.  These are not simply "flaws", but
>> reprehensible acts that run contrary to the values of liberty, equality,
>> and justice.  The Apollo astronauts had flaws, but statues of astronauts
>> would celebrate space exploration and not whatever flaws they had.  The
>> same goes for Martin Luther King Jr., Sally Ride, Mary Golda Ross, and
>> Doris Miller, and their extraordinary achievements as common people.  A
>> statue of a Confederate general on horseback in uniform inherently
>> celebrates a reprehensible flaw.
>>
>>
>>
>> That is why people have been calling for statue removal for decades.  The
>> statues represent a very visual message about the towns that have those
>> statues, and the statues present a very strong message to people who view
>> them.  The statues of Lee and Forrest tell viewers, especially Black
>> viewers, that "this town believes in slavery and the oppression of Black
>> people and wishes the south had won".  The statues of Oñate and Grant
>> boldly state to Native Americans that "you have been conquered".  The
>> American Museum of Natural History saw the message conveyed by that
>> particular statue of Roosevelt, and decided to cease displaying it in a
>> public square.
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Michael R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:56 PM Markusen, Bruce <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> How would you like it if citizens came into your Museum and simply tore
>> down an exhibit they considered offensive, without debate, without
>> argument, without any other consideration?
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Heather George
>>
>>
>>
>> PhD Candidate, History
>>
>> M.A. Public History
>>
>> B.A. Hon History and Indigenous Studies
>>
>> O.C.G.C Museum Management and Curatorship
>>
>>
>>
>> View my LinkedIn Profile:
>>
>> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115
>> <https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115>
>>
>>
>>
>> *I acknowledge that I live and work on the traditional territories of the
>> Attawandaron (Neutral), Anishnaabeg, and Haudenosaunee (Six Nations /
>> Iroquois) Nations. The University of Waterloo is situated on the Haldimand
>> Tract, land promised to the Haudenosaunee by Governor Haldimand in 1784,
>> which includes six miles on each side of the Grand River. *
>>
>>
>>
>> *For general information about Indigenous history please visit: **https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home
>> <https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home>**/ *
>>
>>
>>
>> *For more information about Six Nations of the Grand River Land
>> claims please read: http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf
>> <http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>> attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.*
>>
>>
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> --
> *Antonia Krajina*
> c: 647-674-3259
> e: [log in to unmask]
> -
> Connect with me via:
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/antoniakrajina> | Art of Democracy
> Project <http://www.artofdemocracyproject.com/>
>
>
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