What this "discussion" has shown me, unfortunately, is that people seem to have forgotten how to discuss anything in a civil and objective manner. I'm embarrassed by the number of put-downs, the name calling, and the snarky, self-righteous responses. Perhaps it's a good thing museum professionals and historians aren't leading this national conversation, although i might have thought previously that if any group had the knowledge and experience to do so, this would be it. Elizabeth Simon On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 3:50 PM Antonia Krajina <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Bruce, > > Saying dead white guys is a fact, not an opinion, and definitely not a > racist comment. The fact that you take offence at this but want to take a > right for people to self-determine how they wish to be called speaks > volumes. > > The fact that one doesn’t spell a word right, doesn’t take away from the > validity of their opinion - which is also a fact that any teacher can tell > you - unless your opinion only mattered when you started spelling ALL your > words correctly. And one doesn’t have to spend a second somewhere to have > an opinion on something - Europeans have spent much less time in places > they colonized before they decided to devalue and devastate them, yet we > don’t seem to see as a big of a problem with that. > > The mess that our Euro-centric thinking and our white culture brought onto > the world is glaringly obvious to anyone who is willing to listen, at the > very least, so there is no excuse for you trying to discredit a fellow > professional and a scholar. > > Antonia Krajina > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 3:37 PM Markusen, Bruce < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> This is a response to Heather George: >> >> >> >> With regard to the plaques and statues in Cooperstown, I mentioned only >> the statue of James Fenimore Cooper, which is probably the most prominent >> statue in the village and which is located in close proximity to the Hall >> of Fame, our most prominent institution. There is nothing inappropriate >> about this statue of Mr. Cooper or the wording on the plaque. (There has >> been discussion locally about the use of the word “Indian” on other statues >> in Cooperstown, but that was not the subject of my original post on >> Tuesday). >> >> >> >> Heather, I might be willing to give you a little bit more credibility on >> the subject of Cooper and Cooperstown if you would have bothered to spell >> Mr. Cooper’s name properly. His middle name, which he added later in life >> as a tribute to his mother, is spelled “Fenimore” and not “Fennimore.” The >> Fenimore Art Museum, now located on the site of the Fenimore farm, his >> onetime residence, bears his name. If you can’t even get this basic piece >> of information right—the spelling of a famous American writer’s name—why >> should I trust your argument on anything else related to James Fenimore >> Cooper and the depictions of Cooperstown’s rich history? >> >> >> >> You mentioned that you are an Indigenous scholar, and I am sure that you >> know far, far more about the subject than I do. With regard to your >> experience in Cooperstown, you also mentioned that you were here for about >> a week. In contrast, I have lived in Cooperstown for 24 years, and have >> been doing tours of our village since 2004. I will defer to you on the >> subject of Indigenous depictions (though I’m not certain why you take such >> offense to the word “Native” or “Native American), but will point out that >> there are many other memorials in our village on an array of subjects and >> themes, including memorials to World War I and II, to baseball (The Sandlot >> Kid, Roy Campanella, Johnny Podres, Satchel Paige, and the All-American >> Girls Professional Baseball League), and to members of the Cooper family. >> There is nothing racist or offensive about any of these statues contained >> within our village. If anything, the statues are a sign of inclusivity, >> given that Campanella and Paige were both African American, along with the >> decision to honor the women of the All-American League. (We also have a >> side street named after Bud Fowler, the first African-American player in >> the history of professional baseball.) >> >> >> >> If you want to express displeasure with the Indigenous statues and >> memorials of Cooperstown, that is fine and well, but to make such a blanket >> dismissal of the village of Cooperstown and its famed author is both >> inaccurate and unfair. >> >> >> >> Also, I might suggest using language other than your flippant reference >> to “dead white guys,” which borders on offensive, if not racist. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bruce Markusen >> >> Cooperstown, NY >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On >> Behalf Of *Lundgren, Jodi >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 2:39 PM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: [MUSEUM-L] [AASLH Hist House Mus] Fake Information Being >> Distributed About Historic Sites & Museums >> >> >> >> Thank you Heather!!! >> >> >> >> *From:* Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> *On Behalf >> Of *Heather George >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 8:07 AM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: [MUSEUM-L] [AASLH Hist House Mus] Fake Information Being >> Distributed About Historic Sites & Museums >> >> >> >> She:kon all, >> >> Oh gosh, well I'm hesitant to walk into this discussion since I've >> primarily avoided the whole thing on social media since as a BIPOC person >> it's exhausting and emotionally upsetting but I suppose I don't get the >> privilege of thinking of this as a philosophical discussion. I can't >> address every point in this discussion - I'm very glad it is happening >> though and read all of the comments with great interest - in fact this is >> my first ever response to a MUSEUM-L thread. >> >> >> >> Two years ago we had this "debate" in my History of Human Rights Course - >> I was the only BIPOC person in the conversation in a cohort of history MA's >> and PhD students - 20 of us and I'm white passing and I was the only one >> arguing that not only are many of the statues historically inaccurate they >> are also bad art and perpetuate problematic myths. >> >> >> >> Thank you for posting the well thought out responses to the idea of these >> statues being put in museums and the challenges it presents (also museums >> are not neutral - an excellent and important point). >> >> >> >> To all those commenting on the ignorance or "purity of history" there is >> no such thing as pure history even we as museum professionals and >> historians bring a biase. History is taught, studied and thought about >> within the confines (values, limitations, ethics) of our own time and what >> our communities prioritize - what we write, preserve, and discuss is always >> biased - so the argument that this is re-writing history is a fallacy - we >> all know that even historic "primary" documents are biased - so perhaps we >> should all get off our own "high horses" and reflect on that - there is no >> pure history. >> >> >> >> James Fennimore Cooper and Cooperstown is a terrible example of >> historical preservation (sorry to call this one out but it particularly >> annoys me) - as an Indigenous scholar who studied at the Fenimore museum >> for a week I was appalled by the lack of information or blatant racism >> displayed by historic markers and monuments in this town - which is in the >> middle of Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / Iroquois) territory - there is a >> "native burial mound" with a plaque, "native hunter" statue and a plaque >> extolling the virtues of the Clinton Sullivan campaign. >> >> >> >> Finally something that stands out to me is that all of these statues (on >> public or private land) are all on Indigenous land - yes we are still here >> we are still have nations and governance systems, languages, ceremonies, >> food systems - sometimes imperfect thanks colonial trauma - but even in the >> US thanks to Marshall (who of course was acting in his own best interests) >> we are recognized as nations - and regardless of whether we have been >> disposed from the land through theft or (primarily fraudulent) treaties we >> are still here and belong to the land and have a responsibility to the land >> - so to talk about "public land / private land" that the statues are on is >> also a fallacy predicated on colonial narratives. >> >> >> >> For non BIPOC folks perhaps it is time to reflect that the current level >> of discomfort, perceived danger (to monuments to dead white guys), and >> social upheaval is nothing compared to the day to day acts of racism, >> marginalization, violence, systemic injustice and historical trauma faced >> by Black, Indigenous, People of Colour. The change we are seeing is long >> overdue - it's appalling it took a pandemic for us to have the time to >> reflect on this and discuss it - and hopefully make positive change - but I >> for one am grateful that we are living in this time. >> >> >> >> Heather >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:26 AM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> Who said it wasn't. and if you think the RED GUARD was just destroying >> Buddhas that's as disgusting a level understanding for which the KKK could >> have only hope to achieve. I can send pictures from the cultural >> revolution given to me by those that survived the red guard. Again I have >> walked the home of the RED GUARD. The KKK might have killed as many people >> ever as ONE WEEK of the Red Guard if that many. let's see 5000 total >> lynchings in recorded US history including the 1400 or so nonblacks >> lynched. Do you think that compares to this? The Red Guard Killed(murdered >> in public extrajudicial) as many as 230,000 in TWO YEARS. >> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1969051/former-red-guards-remember-time-when-killing-was-normal >> >> If you do then I have no words for you. What I can tell you is that >> Michael and those destroying historical items are using the same propaganda >> and making the same statements as the Red Guard. Why do I keep bringing up >> the RED GUARD because people keep using the same propaganda? >> >> But hey congrats on the racist bit about a few buddhas. >> >> >> Randy S. Little >> >> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:57 PM Elizabeth Walton <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> I am a former curator of history at Stone Mountain Park. I also grew up >> in the Stone Mountain area and it was a huge part of my childhood. >> Comparing it to an ancient Buddha is... I can't even find words to express >> how wrong that is. >> >> To be clear, the UDC did not fully fund the carving on Stone Mountain. >> Helen Plane and the UDC did raise funds and the first carving was a >> complete failure due to lack of funding and carving was stopped in 1925 and >> again in 1928. Decades later, as a statement against segregation, The state >> of Georgia took over the project and the land.Until 1960 the KKK had the >> legal right to hold rallies on the property in perpetuity. They still held >> rallies well into the 1980's. At that point the surrounding area >> demographics shifted. >> >> From Wikipedia: >> >> "Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that year, >> Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations >> as they desired.[29] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-29> The >> influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a >> carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. She >> suggested in a letter to the first sculptor, Gutzon Borglum: >> >> I feel it is due to the Klan[,] which saved us from Negro dominations >> [sic] and carpetbag <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger> rule, >> that it be immortalized on Stone Mountain. Why not represent a small group >> of them in their nightly uniform approaching in the distance?[6] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 >> [20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Encycl-20> >> >> The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association >> (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and >> Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack >> the SMCMA with Klan members.[30] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-ngeorgia.com-30> The >> SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, continued >> fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal >> government, which in 1925 issued special fifty-cent coins >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Commemorative_Coin> with >> the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them." >> >> "In response to Brown v. Board of Education >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education> of 1954 and >> the birth of the Civil Rights Movement >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Movement>, in 1958, at the >> urging of segregationist Governor Marvin Griffin >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Griffin>,[6] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 the >> Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain at a >> price of $1.125 million. In 1963 Walker Hancock >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Hancock> was selected to complete >> the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by Roy >> Faulkner >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roy_Faulkner_(sculptor)&action=edit&redlink=1>, >> who in 1985 opened the Stone Mountain Carving Museum (now closed) on nearby >> Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history.[21] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-21> The carving >> was completed on March 3, 1972.[22] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-SMHistory-22> An >> extensive archival collection related to the project is now at Emory >> University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University>, with the >> bulk of the materials dating from 1915 to 1930; the finding aid >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_aid> provides a history of the >> project, and an index of the papers contained in the collection.[18] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Emory-18> >> >> Stone Mountain Park officially opened on April 14, 1965 – 100 years to >> the day after Lincoln's assassination >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Abraham_Lincoln>.[6] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6> Four >> flags of the Confederacy >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America> are flown. >> [23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-23> The >> Stone Mountain Memorial Lawn "contains...thirteen terraces — one for each >> Confederate state.... Each terrace flies the flag that the state flew as >> member of the Confederacy."[24 >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Myajc-24>" >> >> >> The land the park is on is now an independent organization called the >> Stone MOuntain Memorial Association that is self funded through >> parking fees. The attractions are managed through Herschend >> Entertainment. >> >> It was 100% started to celebrate not just the Confederacy but also the >> KKK. >> >> People who are promoting removal do not seem to understand how large it >> is. It is larger than Mount Rushmore. >> >> I do not promote removal but it should be interpreted honestly. Its >> entire creation was racist. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:18 PM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> Let just go with Teddy for a second from your last sentence. So from what >> you said. you clearly got what actually happened in history. We conquered >> the native people of the landmass. AND TO THIS DAY mistreat them. OBAMA >> violated codified treaties. Please never mention him again because of this >> if you approve of the removal of Teddy R. . oye. Many of the Southern >> statues were originally paid for and build by PRIVATE FUNDS originally on >> private land. Stone Mountain by the D.O.C. So it clearly shows how those >> people felt at a point in history when they RAISED THE FUNDS AND CARVED THE >> STATUE. I bet your brain melts when you look at an east Asian map and see >> the markers for Buddhist temples. Even though that is the symbol used for >> nearly 1500 years in japan alone. >> >> Oh just curious when do we give back Hawaii since we very clearly stole >> the entire island chain. >> >> My wife is asking when you are planning to remove all the FDR statues >> from public display. She has an issue with him TAKING the property of >> Americans. Holding them in camps in such wonderful locations such as Tulle >> Lake CA. and then giving them $25 when released to return to none of their >> property existing or having been sold and claimed by others. >> >> I'm going to guess you have never moved around very much. >> >> Ok now that we have rehashed the same arguments made by the RED GUARD >> again. I'm guessing that you somehow see your point of view as more >> justified then theirs. It is not. Hey Mikey watch this video turn on >> subtitles and I can promise you that it is the sentiment of most Japanese. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLrpa1ojeKs&pp=wgIECgIIAQ%3D%3D >> >> >> >> >> Randy S. Little >> http://www.rslittle.com/ >> >> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:11 PM Michael Rebman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> >> >> There has been debate for decades about most of these statues in >> question. There have been public debates and lawsuits. Various southern >> states passed state-level laws within the past twenty years either >> protecting statues (like North Carolina) or revoking protections for >> statues (like Virginia). The calls for taking down the statues and name >> dedications of Oñate started in the 1990s and earlier. This is not a >> sudden debate that has appeared overnight, and I do not think anybody in >> the Museum-L listserv has endorsed vandalism or destruction of property. >> >> >> >> Museum exhibits are also different from public art in that an exhibit >> reflects the views of the exhibit designers, while public art serves as a >> public endorsement of the subject matter by the local government and by >> taxpayers. Or if it is on private property, it acts as an endorsement by >> the owners of the private property. Someone who looks at a statue of Jonas >> Salk would not gain knowledge of modern medicine, and someone who looks at >> a statue of James Fennimore Cooper would not gain knowledge of early >> American prose, but those viewers would know that the localities endorse >> the subjects of the statues, and the viewers might be inclined to >> subsequently learn more about the subjects. A plaque at the foot or >> pedestal of the statue would not be able to contain suitable and nuanced >> information, just a short summary of why the subject is revered by the >> town. A person unfamiliar with James Fennimore Cooper would see the >> statue, read the plaque, and simply understand that a guy lived in that >> town a few hundred years ago and wrote books, and the town is glad that the >> author lived there. That is the entire purpose of non-artistic and >> non-religious statuary, to revere and celebrate the subject of the statue. >> The viewers are not learning about the subjects themselves, but about >> attitudes held about the subjects. >> >> >> >> Thus, someone viewing a statue of Roosevelt on horseback in an attempt at >> a Rough Rider uniform, in front of a partially-naked African man and a >> slightly more clothed Native American man, both of whom are carrying >> Roosevelt's gear, would come to the conclusion that the institution that >> holds such a statue on public display outside would be fine with the >> attitudes on colonialism and the White Man's Burden that the statue >> conveys. Had it been a statue of Roosevelt hiking through the forest with >> a walking stick, that would be a different matter. Had it been a statue of >> Roosevelt standing between the Tsar of Russia and the Emperor of Japan, >> forcing them to shake hands, that would also be a different matter. >> However, statues even with plaques do not convey educational information >> and nuance about subject matters, just the overall sense of what attitude >> people should have about the subject matters. A display of statues in a >> museum could have text panels, videos, and docents to provide details. A >> statue in a park, in a public square, or at the front door of a courthouse >> or city hall would simply send the message that the people of that >> particular town consider the subject to be worthy of veneration, leaving it >> up to the viewer to find out why. That is why Black people have spent the >> past few decades trying to relocate or store away the statues of Lee and >> Forrest, and why Native Americans have been trying for decades to remove >> statues of Oñate and Jackson. Because those statues represent people who >> engaged in oppressive acts against minorities, from treason in furtherance >> of protecting slavery to slave trading to massacres to ethnic cleansing and >> genocide. >> >> >> >> The overall problem is not that the statues represent long-dead people >> who might be disliked by some living people. And it is also not that the >> statues represent good people who might have slipped up once or twice. It >> is that the statues in question celebrate people as they were doing things >> that run against American ideals, and are posed and dressed to represent >> those very specific terrible things. The statues of Lee and Forrest always >> show them in Confederate uniforms, not in civilian clothes while delivering >> turkeys to poor people on Christmas. The statues of Oñate show him in >> armor scouting around and fighting in New Mexico, not sitting around a >> fireplace telling stories to his children. The crowning achievements of >> Lee and Forrest were their battlefield victories in their war against the >> United States, while Oñate's crowning achievement was massacring hundreds >> of Native Americans and chopping off the feet of survivors, and Jackson's >> crowning achievement was the ethnic cleansing of the southeast and the >> deaths of thousands of Native Americans. These are not simply "flaws", but >> reprehensible acts that run contrary to the values of liberty, equality, >> and justice. The Apollo astronauts had flaws, but statues of astronauts >> would celebrate space exploration and not whatever flaws they had. The >> same goes for Martin Luther King Jr., Sally Ride, Mary Golda Ross, and >> Doris Miller, and their extraordinary achievements as common people. A >> statue of a Confederate general on horseback in uniform inherently >> celebrates a reprehensible flaw. >> >> >> >> That is why people have been calling for statue removal for decades. The >> statues represent a very visual message about the towns that have those >> statues, and the statues present a very strong message to people who view >> them. The statues of Lee and Forrest tell viewers, especially Black >> viewers, that "this town believes in slavery and the oppression of Black >> people and wishes the south had won". The statues of Oñate and Grant >> boldly state to Native Americans that "you have been conquered". The >> American Museum of Natural History saw the message conveyed by that >> particular statue of Roosevelt, and decided to cease displaying it in a >> public square. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Michael R. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:56 PM Markusen, Bruce < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> How would you like it if citizens came into your Museum and simply tore >> down an exhibit they considered offensive, without debate, without >> argument, without any other consideration? >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Heather George >> >> >> >> PhD Candidate, History >> >> M.A. Public History >> >> B.A. Hon History and Indigenous Studies >> >> O.C.G.C Museum Management and Curatorship >> >> >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile: >> >> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115 >> <https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115> >> >> >> >> *I acknowledge that I live and work on the traditional territories of the >> Attawandaron (Neutral), Anishnaabeg, and Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / >> Iroquois) Nations. The University of Waterloo is situated on the Haldimand >> Tract, land promised to the Haudenosaunee by Governor Haldimand in 1784, >> which includes six miles on each side of the Grand River. * >> >> >> >> *For general information about Indigenous history please visit: **https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home >> <https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home>**/ * >> >> >> >> *For more information about Six Nations of the Grand River Land >> claims please read: http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf >> <http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf>* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> >> >> >> *ATTENTION: This email came from an external source. Do not open >> attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> > -- > *Antonia Krajina* > c: 647-674-3259 > e: [log in to unmask] > - > Connect with me via: > LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/antoniakrajina> | Art of Democracy > Project <http://www.artofdemocracyproject.com/> > > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: > https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 > ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . 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