Brian, just in case you did not receive any of this conversation; I have 
kindly forwarded it on.  
Colleena (-:


Wow, Brian, ready to change your name and enter the federal witness
protection program?

What an outdated attitude. How do you know any less learning is going on in
interactive museums than in the more traditional ones? Informal learning is
very difficult to measure in any museum. I agree - some museums do from time
to time sink to the level of McMuseums but certainly not all children's
museums operate on that level. I suggest visiting some of the better ones.
I'll send you a list privately if you're interested.

It's not just children's museum folks who long ago tired of dreary museums
and dusty attitudes. (Not to call MCHS dreary and dusty - I've never been
there.) The Wall Street Journal published an excellent article last month
called "Why Are Museums So Clueless?" (April 9, 1999). The gist of it is that
more and more people are flocking to museums but many of them go away hungry.
As someone traditionally trained in art history (Case Western Reserve and the
Cleveland Museum of Art) I can appreciate the quiet scholarly museums as well
as the interactives but to call museums without collections "an evil trend"
is silly.
Mary Maher
Editor
Hand to Hand
A quarterly publication of the Association of Youth Museums

Well I think it's great to air this potentially fruitful debate as often as
possible!

I think children's museums have shown that a shake-up was due for
traditional museums which assumed that their possession of wonderful object
collections must inevitably result in a high-quality learning experience
for visitors.

I also think that it's never a good idea to throw out the baby with the
bathwater. Every children's museum should take careful account of criticism
such as this. Does lip-service to "interactivity" automatically guarantee
educational effectiveness? It surely doesn't and there's always room for
thoughtful improvement.

The definition of "learning" seems to be a key issue. To one person,
"learning" cannot be happening without cognitive gains of knowledge, facts
and figures, and testable understanding of formal concepts. Another person
sees more "learning", in terms of the extended "vocabulary of experiences",
self-confidence, and the social and communication skills gained in the
McDonalds playland, than a child gets from trailing, sulky and bored,
through a traditional museum in the wake of a loud-voiced, compulsive
explainer.

I know a children's discovery room which enormously improved its
interactivity, as well as its learning potential, by putting a huge archive
collection of natural history specimens in sliding drawers with clear,
protective covers.

I've also heard a consultant specialising in interactive exhibitions say
that this area is wrong and needs re-designing, because it results in
children investigating "the raw diversity of nature" with all the
undisciplined excitement of a class of children dipping into the edge of a
pond! (Such enthusiasm for the investigation of nature seems a pretty
valuable item of "learning", to me, even if it isn't actually being
"taught" by a teacher.)

It's a fruitful topic for open-minded discussion, but the issues are surely
too complex for anything to to be gained from digging-in and rigidly
defending entrenched positions.

¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤
Ian Russell    :-)nteractive Science Ltd, UK   Useful quote:
- "Facts do not speak." Jules Henri Poincaré 1854-1912
[log in to unmask]     http://www.interactives.co.uk



> Please tell me what kind of "collection" a children's science
> museum should
> have.
>
> Properly designed and staffed exhibits provide a great deal of learning.
> Children learn more by doing things than from having their
> parents read the
> little tags on a
> room full of artifacts to them.
>
> Blessed are the parents who will discuss exhibits of "collections"
> to their children - for their children shall inherit a love of historical
> museums.
> Lighten up folks - not every one learns in the same way.
> Children and adults have multiple intelligences and a choice in venues is
> positive.
>
> Perhaps you should spend less time belittling those who are different and
> more time learning new ideas.
>
> " When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and
> clothes."  Erasmus
>
> "Our brightest blazes of gladness are commonly kindled by
> uncommon sparks."
> Samuel Johnson
>
Okay, Brian has a somewhat narrow view of the concept of "collections".  With
most children's museums or discovery museums there are indeed collections, but
of hands-on experiences rather than "do-not-touch" artifacts.

 However, there are two things to consider here.

First, Brian comes from a Historical Society setting which, as I recall, is
usually a collection of historical artifacts crammed in a historic house which
is much too small to give even those collections a chance to be interpreted in
a creative, interactive way.  Besides, many historical collections are too
delicate to be handled by visitors.  For example, antique toys, which were
meant to be played with once upon a time, have attained the status of
"historical artifacts" in today's world.

There is a wonderful place for museums that have those collections, alongside
the experiential collections of activities and "playspaces" which give kids
practice at doing the real thing, or a chance to learn by experimentation with
open-ended "collections" of one sort or another.

The second thing to consider is that although this has been a great
springboard for discussion, Brian made his remarks on another listserve and
will not hear any of our comments unless someone forwards them back to that 
list.

In any case, the discussion has been enjoyable so far.  There's nothing like
an incoming volley to rally the troops!

Dave Orleans
[log in to unmask]
Volunteer CHILDMUS Lurker for

Garden State Discovery Museum
16 N. Springdale Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
(609)424-1233
[log in to unmask]
Whoa!

This is getting interesting! I have to throw my two cents worth in on the
side of Colleena. There are many different modes of learning and many
different things to learn. The American Museum of Natural History is one of
my favorite places on earth, and my 4 year old's, too. It has an absolutely
great collection. But other favorites are the museums at Acton, the Magic
House in St. Louis and the Exploratorium. Each one, and many other
"museums", offer their own unique experiences which contribute to the full
circle of our world. Is it more 'evil' to down hill ski than to cross
country? No. It's just another way of enjoying snow.

However, I will also add this. I don't subscribe to a 'code of silence' in
this "industry" either. If someone has an opinion they would like to share,
be it critical or supportive, let them express it - and let them also be
willing to accept the slings and arrows hoist upon them because of it.
So...shields up!


Joe R

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