Note to Ton:  I think there are probably many of us that feel that way here
in the U.S.  Theft is theft, no matter how you slice it, and I couldn't in
good conscience accept something for my museum that I knew had been stolen
or illegally exported.

The days of museum directors referring to "their favorite smuggler" are long
gone, I hope.

Claudia Nicholson

-----Original Message-----
From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of MSN CPPnet (Ton Cremers)
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 1:31 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Theft or Unjust Enrichment

These are a lot of words for stating that if the acquisitions were illicit
objects should be returned and if they are not illicit the objects should
not be returned.
I could not agree more, and am very glad to read that an American Museum-L
subscriber supports the return of objects illicitly acquired.

Ton Cremers

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museum discussion list 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Indigo Nights
> Sent: 05 November 2005 17:43
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Theft or Unjust Enrichment
> 
> I suppose quite a few of you are familiar with the tumult at 
> the Getty and the upheavals of late.  If you've been 
> following their travails, you'll know that not only Italy, 
> but now Greece, as well, are demanding the return of 
> antiquities claiming they were stolen.
> 
> I don't have a good grip on all the details, but things I 
> have learned in the last two years are making me question 
> whether the story being told by the other nations is reality 
> or just an example of unjust enrichment.
> 
> In the last two years, my guy and I visited both the Hearst 
> Castle and Ca d'zan (among the many museums we've explored).  
> In both instances, what struck me was there were precious 
> treasures that had been moved from 
> homes/palaces/castles/churches (whatever) and placed in these 
> American mansions.  It struck me at the time that this was 
> such a tragedy, that riches of yore had been plundered by 
> wealthy Americans who wanted to build their own castles.
> 
> My memory of what was conveyed at both locales is that these 
> things were purchased in the early 20th century when Europe 
> was very poor and had a need to sell off such things to put 
> bread and butter on the table. 
> Americans had the money, and they paid to have the things 
> relocated.  There was no indication these were or were not 
> government sanctioned.  I was glad for the opportunity to see 
> them, but saddened that the almighty dollar had been 
> responsible in some fashion for encouraging the destruction 
> of antiquities.  The liberal in me said, though, that it 
> allowed some to eat.
> 
> Now, fast forward to the American treasure, The Getty.
>  I can't begin to say whether the allegations of the Italians 
> and Greek governments (and I suppose the Egyptians won't be 
> far behind) is true or not.  It is entirely conceivable to me 
> that there were opportunists back when, who learned that 
> Americans would pay and pillaged for profit.  We cannot judge 
> the transfer of knowledge as to ownership by today's 
> standards, where everything is electronic and veritably 
> instantaneous.  Who is to say whether what transpired was 
> legal or illegal?  Not me.
> 
> It just strikes me that, while I would not want to be party 
> to theft, it would would not seem fair for these two nations 
> to be unjustly enriched by these events either.  If the 
> transfer of items was a legitimate purchase at the time, and 
> money crossed palms, why would it be ok for the two countries 
> to demand the return of the antiquities without giving 
> "consideration" (read compensation) to the Getty for the 
> exchange, based on purchase price escalated by today's value 
> of money (i.e., $100 at one point being equivalent to $100,000 today)?
> 
> This has been bugging me of late.  If the Getty is truly 
> guilty, so be it, return the treasures.  But if such were not 
> the case, and this is simply a case of nationalism, no way, 
> Jose.  I rather think that anyone who is in possession of 
> treasures that originated from foreign (or even Native 
> American tribes) needs to take heed for the precedent this 
> stands to set that could have an impact on the many institutions.
> 
> In some ways, this post feels like the child saying the 
> emperor is naked.  Don't yell at me for asking; I really want 
> to know and look to you experts for answers.
> 
> 
> Indigo Nights
> [log in to unmask]
> 
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