Note to Ton: I think there are probably many of us that feel that way here in the U.S. Theft is theft, no matter how you slice it, and I couldn't in good conscience accept something for my museum that I knew had been stolen or illegally exported. The days of museum directors referring to "their favorite smuggler" are long gone, I hope. Claudia Nicholson -----Original Message----- From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MSN CPPnet (Ton Cremers) Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 1:31 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Theft or Unjust Enrichment These are a lot of words for stating that if the acquisitions were illicit objects should be returned and if they are not illicit the objects should not be returned. I could not agree more, and am very glad to read that an American Museum-L subscriber supports the return of objects illicitly acquired. Ton Cremers _________________________ Museum Security Network http://www.museum-security.org/ http://cpprot.te.verweg.com http://msn-list.te.verweg.com Sample file of Video Project http://www.lukanga.co.uk/lukanga-sample.wmv http://www.lukanga.co.uk/lenelly.wmv http://www.lukanga.co.uk/sample2.wmv _________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Museum discussion list > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Indigo Nights > Sent: 05 November 2005 17:43 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Theft or Unjust Enrichment > > I suppose quite a few of you are familiar with the tumult at > the Getty and the upheavals of late. If you've been > following their travails, you'll know that not only Italy, > but now Greece, as well, are demanding the return of > antiquities claiming they were stolen. > > I don't have a good grip on all the details, but things I > have learned in the last two years are making me question > whether the story being told by the other nations is reality > or just an example of unjust enrichment. > > In the last two years, my guy and I visited both the Hearst > Castle and Ca d'zan (among the many museums we've explored). > In both instances, what struck me was there were precious > treasures that had been moved from > homes/palaces/castles/churches (whatever) and placed in these > American mansions. It struck me at the time that this was > such a tragedy, that riches of yore had been plundered by > wealthy Americans who wanted to build their own castles. > > My memory of what was conveyed at both locales is that these > things were purchased in the early 20th century when Europe > was very poor and had a need to sell off such things to put > bread and butter on the table. > Americans had the money, and they paid to have the things > relocated. There was no indication these were or were not > government sanctioned. I was glad for the opportunity to see > them, but saddened that the almighty dollar had been > responsible in some fashion for encouraging the destruction > of antiquities. The liberal in me said, though, that it > allowed some to eat. > > Now, fast forward to the American treasure, The Getty. > I can't begin to say whether the allegations of the Italians > and Greek governments (and I suppose the Egyptians won't be > far behind) is true or not. It is entirely conceivable to me > that there were opportunists back when, who learned that > Americans would pay and pillaged for profit. We cannot judge > the transfer of knowledge as to ownership by today's > standards, where everything is electronic and veritably > instantaneous. Who is to say whether what transpired was > legal or illegal? Not me. > > It just strikes me that, while I would not want to be party > to theft, it would would not seem fair for these two nations > to be unjustly enriched by these events either. If the > transfer of items was a legitimate purchase at the time, and > money crossed palms, why would it be ok for the two countries > to demand the return of the antiquities without giving > "consideration" (read compensation) to the Getty for the > exchange, based on purchase price escalated by today's value > of money (i.e., $100 at one point being equivalent to $100,000 today)? > > This has been bugging me of late. If the Getty is truly > guilty, so be it, return the treasures. But if such were not > the case, and this is simply a case of nationalism, no way, > Jose. I rather think that anyone who is in possession of > treasures that originated from foreign (or even Native > American tribes) needs to take heed for the precedent this > stands to set that could have an impact on the many institutions. > > In some ways, this post feels like the child saying the > emperor is naked. Don't yell at me for asking; I really want > to know and look to you experts for answers. > > > Indigo Nights > [log in to unmask] > > ========================================================= > Important Subscriber Information: > > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at > http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain > detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a > one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . 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