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Has summer finally gotten to the members of this list? Many of my colleagues are struggling with formulating best practices for the profession and there is a proliferation of funding opportunities for conservation and preservation of collections. Pets -- dogs, gerbils, insects, whatever -- are not welcome nor will they help you at all when the panels meet to decide your grant, or when your registrar finds out. Cheers, Geri

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> There are 9 messages totalling 1611 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Dogs (7)
> 2. Kids vs.Dogs
> 3. Is the Museum World Going to the Dogs?
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:13:12 -0700
> From: Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm a dog owner but am not one of these people that think my dog should be able
> to go anywhere I do but a lot of the arguments against dogs can be made against
> children as well.
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > To bring a dog into the workplace or gallery area is thus inconsiderate of
> others.
>
> While the point that people might be threatened by dogs is valid, but what if
> everyone at your office is dog friendly and wants to bring their dogs too? I've
> worked at a couple of offices where we brought our dogs in and it was a much
> less stressful place as a result. We had a reason to get up and take a walk
> every now and then instead of being stuck at our desks. If everyone agrees then
> why not bring in dogs?
>
> > 2. Dogs are animals. They carry insects, plant life and everything else and
>
> > can quickly produce vomit, feces and urine. If we are concerned about
> > protecting our collections from pests, we should not allow dogs or any other
> > pets near them.
>
> I'd make that claim against your average pre-schooler. I know I piddled on the
> floor at least once as a child and seen many a kid vomit. Kids don't cover
> their mouths when they sneeze, wipe their germy hands over everything, might
> not wash them after going to the bathroom. I know parents who send their kids
> to school sick because they don't have enough leave time at work to take off or
> a babysitter to take care of them. As a public school teacher, I was sick all
> the time from being around children. My dog is much healthier than most kids
> and is completely potty trained.
>
> > 3. Respect and responsibility for collections. Museum people are charged
> > with upholding the public trust when it comes to collections. That means
> > museums not only have fiduciary responsibility to our public and to our
> > collections, but they are also charged with providing proper care for the
> > collections.
>
> So how is having a dog around the collections not responsible? My dog isn't
> going to try and paw the paintings. You have to repeatedly tell some children
> to keep their grubby little hands off them.
>
> > And the public expects this. Just because people bring pets into their
> > private work places or businesses allow clients to bring their pets with them
> doesn't mean museums should allow this.
>
> Again, why not? Shouldn't it be up to the museums to decide? What if the
> museums have a nice sculpture garden or a nature center where a pet could hang
> out with the other animals?
>
> > Once we start allowing dogs, what's next? Pot belly pigs, iguanas, snakes?
> > All of these are pets.
>
> Iguanas and snakes are far better choices to allow than dogs or children. They
> don't shed. Don't make noise and are pretty self-containted. I used to work at
> a nature center that had an iguana who loved to ride on my head. I could work
> at my desk, do school programs, or work around the center and he'd happily sit
> on my head and not move. I've sat at my desk for many hours with a snake around
> my waist or curled around my pony tail as well. The only problem I'd have with
> pot bellied pigs is that you can't really lead them around on a leash and they
> can be rather stubborn creatures so they're harder to control than a dog.
>
> Go visit Germany sometime. I don't think dogs are allowed in museums but they
> are allowed in resturants, shops, and many other places. They are also
> well-behaved. I'd take a well-trained dog over a bratty kid any day. Some
> people are also calmer with their dogs and might get more out of the museum
> experience. Dogs can be a calming influence and help people focus. I have the
> world's friendliest greyhound. Really! He gets upset if we *don't* stop and
> talk to people on our walks. He'd be fine in a museum or anyplace else that I
> wanted to take him. And getting your dog out and about is far preferable than
> leaving them at home for 12 hours a day.
>
> But I do agree that there are appropriate and inappropriate places for dogs. I
> also believe that all dogs should have obedience training and be under control
> at all time. I just wish people would think that way about their children.
>
> Deb
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:43:54 -0600
> From: John Martinson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C476DA.8346CD60
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Some people, too, are allergic to dogs/cats and pets, but not children. =
> And children do not
> shed hair. Children are human, and sad to say dogs are not. Children =
> take baths, and many pet
> owners fail to even bath their dogs/pets -- and they smell. Children =
> learn from museums, dogs/pets
> do not. Dog claws on hard floors make noise and scratch; while children =
> do not shift at your private parts or have their nose where it is not =
> suppose to be. Children earn money for a museum, pets do not.
> Pets belong at home. Surely, a large percent of pet owners do not pick =
> up when their
> dog does their thing on museum floor or park or forest trail. I see so =
> much of that on trails and museum lawns were you want to lay your =
> blanket for a lunch or watch a concert..and there is "crap" on the =
> ground left by uncaring dog owners! Or what am I seeing people step in? =
> Surely, not children's droppings. And oh my! I've seen so many dogs =
> dribble. Their dribble is what makes a person allergic when it hardens. =
> And it smells!=20
>
> Then when a dog sees another dog...there is barking, fights, etc., and =
> sniffing in spots that are not right=20
> in a museum. Children do not do that. Get real. A place for dogs to =
> play and stay at museum?. Some museums do not even have funds to pay =
> their staff higher salaries or preserve their collections. =20
>
> Yes, we have a dog and cat, but I would not bring either to restaurants, =
> stores, movies or museums. I think "pet owners" can be a touch more =
> considerate of others. Leave the things home chewing a bone, shedding =
> hair on your rug or chewing your pillows. Keep them out of public =
> places. And when a dog sees another dog...there is a social club =
> started --- barking, fights, sniffing in spots that are not right in a =
> museum...and children do not do that.
>
> And GOSH! Keep the pets out of the office. I am allergic to them. I =
> have to take shots every month
> because of my own pets -- but having no pets in the office is my only =
> opportunity for fresh air. The
> office would spell like a pet kennel! Keep the darn things at home! My =
> old boss brought a dog to work, and it was constantly sniffing me in =
> spots --- I felt like sending the thing to the moon with a
> swift kick! No, no -- I really would not do that! ;o) And I like =
> dogs, but not at work and not sniffing me with a cold, wet nose! Give =
> us a break!
>
> NO PETS IN MUSEUMS! Because you like pets, does not mean everyone else =
> has to be disturbed by what one feels is "a human" but is a dog!
>
> Sorry, IMHO, pets are not human and should not be allowed in museums. =
> Children are human. =20
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Deb Fuller=20
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm a dog owner but am not one of these people that think my dog =
> should be able
> to go anywhere I do but a lot of the arguments against dogs can be =
> made against
> children as well.
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > To bring a dog into the workplace or gallery area is thus =
> inconsiderate of
> others.
>
> While the point that people might be threatened by dogs is valid, but =
> what if
> everyone at your office is dog friendly and wants to bring their dogs =
> too? I've
> worked at a couple of offices where we brought our dogs in and it was =
> a much
> less stressful place as a result. We had a reason to get up and take a =
> walk
> every now and then instead of being stuck at our desks. If everyone =
> agrees then
> why not bring in dogs?
>
> > 2. Dogs are animals. They carry insects, plant life and everything =
> else and
>
> I'd make that claim against your average pre-schooler. I know I =
> piddled on the
> floor at least once as a child and seen many a kid vomit. Kids don't =
> cover
> their mouths when they sneeze, wipe their germy hands over everything, =
> might
> not wash them after going to the bathroom. I know parents who send =
> their kids
> to school sick because they don't have enough leave time at work to =
> take off or
> a babysitter to take care of them. As a public school teacher, I was =
> sick all
> the time from being around children. My dog is much healthier than =
> most kids
> and is completely potty trained.
>
> > 3. Respect and responsibility for collections. Museum people are =
> charged
> > with upholding the public trust when it comes to collections. That =
> means
> > museums not only have fiduciary responsibility to our public and to =
> our
> > collections, but they are also charged with providing proper care =
> for the
> > collections.
>
> So how is having a dog around the collections not responsible? My dog =
> isn't
> going to try and paw the paintings. You have to repeatedly tell some =
> children
> to keep their grubby little hands off them.
>
> > And the public expects this. Just because people bring pets into =
> their
> > private work places or businesses allow clients to bring their pets =
> with them
> doesn't mean museums should allow this.
>
> Again, why not? Shouldn't it be up to the museums to decide? What if =
> the
> museums have a nice sculpture garden or a nature center where a pet =
> could hang
> out with the other animals?
>
> > Once we start allowing dogs, what's next? Pot belly pigs, iguanas, =
> snakes?
> > All of these are pets.
>
> Iguanas and snakes are far better choices to allow than dogs or =
> children. They
> don't shed. Don't make noise and are pretty self-containted. I used to =
> work at
> a nature center that had an iguana who loved to ride on my head. I =
> could work
> at my desk, do school programs, or work around the center and he'd =
> happily sit
> on my head and not move. I've sat at my desk for many hours with a =
> snake around
> my waist or curled around my pony tail as well. The only problem I'd =
> have with
> pot bellied pigs is that you can't really lead them around on a leash =
> and they
> can be rather stubborn creatures so they're harder to control than a =
> dog.
>
> Go visit Germany sometime. I don't think dogs are allowed in museums =
> but they
> are allowed in resturants, shops, and many other places. They are also
> well-behaved. I'd take a well-trained dog over a bratty kid any day. =
> Some
> people are also calmer with their dogs and might get more out of the =
> museum
> experience. Dogs can be a calming influence and help people focus. I =
> have the
> world's friendliest greyhound. Really! He gets upset if we *don't* =
> stop and
> talk to people on our walks. He'd be fine in a museum or anyplace else =
> that I
> wanted to take him. And getting your dog out and about is far =
> preferable than
> leaving them at home for 12 hours a day.
>
> But I do agree that there are appropriate and inappropriate places for =
> dogs. I
> also believe that all dogs should have obedience training and be under =
> control
> at all time. I just wish people would think that way about their =
> children.
>
> Deb
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:16:58 -0700
> From: Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> A short ad-on to my previous post...
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>
> > To bring a dog into the workplace or gallery area is thus inconsiderate of
> others.
>
> When I worked in an office where dogs were allowed, the dogs were usually
> flopped out under the owner's desk for most of the day. We would occasionally
> play fetch or tug with them and anyone who came to the door got a warm welcome
> from the pooches (except for the UPS man that one dog always barked at. Go
> fig.)
>
> On the flip side, I've been at offices were people have brought in their kids
> because they were out of school or sick and didn't have a sitter. While some
> were well-behaved, I've been around many who were unholy terrors that were left
> to their own devices. Sometimes, other people got stuck with babysitting. While
> I feel confident that my dog doesn't need to have an eye kept on it all the
> time, you cannot do that with young children. It's one thing if you have your
> own office and can contain them, it's another if you are in a cube farm or
> shared office and they are constantly running around. Personally, I think
> children are more of a liability in an office than a well-behaved dog it. Your
> dog can't take the elevator and get lost in the building or get locked in the
> fire stairs or take every pencil in the office and sharpen them so much that
> all you are left with are little nubs or scribble over every dry-erase board
> and leave the caps off the markers so that they dry out.
>
> Deb
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:19:23 EDT
> From: David Harvey <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Kids vs.Dogs
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> This Dogs vs. Kids argument isn't the issue. There are equally well behaved
> dogs and kids and others that are high-spirited that tend to create chaos
> around them.
>
> The real issue is what is acceptable and proper behavior for the individual
> site, be it a nature museum, art museum, children's museum, or historic site.
>
> Visitors should have clear guidelines for what is expected BEFORE they pay
> their admission fees. That means either having signage or knowledgeable staff
> explaining the behavior policies to the public as soon as they walk in the door.
>
> I worked at a major history museum where I witnessed almost everything - from
> teenagers with switchblades, to tobacco chewing types who spit everywhere, to
> French sea cadets who vomited everywhere because diesel fuel had gotten into
> their drinking water on the ship that morning, to women with dogs in their
> purses, to smokers who refused to put out their cigarettes and cigars, to adults
> who sat in period chairs even behind the barriers, to a 10 year old who had an
> epileptic seizure.
>
> The vast majority of the tens of thousands of people who I encountered over
> the years were fine and respected the site and the collections and were
> considerate of others around them.
>
> Cheers!
> Dave
>
> David Harvey
> Conservator
> Los Angeles, California USA
>
> =========================================================
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:39:44 -0700
> From: Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> Playing devil's advocate here...
>
> --- John Martinson <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > Some people, too, are allergic to dogs/cats and pets, but not children. And
> > children do not shed hair.
>
> And people are allergic to perfumes and some dogs don't shed enough or at all
> to cause allergies. Should we start banning perfumed visitors too?
>
> Children are human, and sad to say dogs are not. Children take
> > baths, and many pet owners fail to even bath their dogs/pets -- and they
> smell.
>
> Heh. I can point you to many people who don't bathe nearly as often as they
> should, and they're not homeless people either. My dog rarely needs a bath
> because he's got very short hair and thankfully stays away from icky things. He
> smells a lot better and keeps cleaner than a lot of kids I know.
>
> >Children learn from museums, dogs/pets do not.
>
> Again, I'd wager that the screaming 6 month old isn't getting much out of the
> museum experience or that the toodler who constantly runs away from Mommy isn't
> either. Bored teen-agers and boyfriends who get dragged to art galleries by
> their girlfriends probably aren't absorbing anything either. While my dog
> probably won't learn much, he is appreciative of getting a walk which is one up
> on the bored teen-agers and boyfriends.
>
> >Dog claws on hard floors make noise and scratch;
>
> Properly trimmed they don't and they are much less damaging than high heels,
> sneakers, and stroller wheels.
>
> >while children do not shift at your private parts or have their nose where it
> is not suppose to be.
>
> I assume you mean sniff. My old dachshound wasn't high enough off the ground to
> sniff past your ankles. And again, properly trained dogs don't do that. I've
> been pawed by plenty of kids who didn't know how to keep their hands to
> themselves.
>
> > Children earn money for a museum, pets do not.
>
> Charge a pet admission.
>
> > Pets belong at home. Surely, a large percent of pet owners do not pick up
> > when their dog does their thing on museum floor or park or forest trail. I
> see so much of that on trails and museum lawns were you want to lay your
> blanket for a lunch or watch a concert..and there is "crap" on the ground left
> by uncaring dog owners!
>
> Well that is a problem with inconsiderate dog owners. On the flip side, how
> many kids pick up after themselves these days?
>
> > And oh my! I've seen so many dogs dribble. Their dribble is
> > what makes a person allergic when it hardens. And it smells!
>
> Uh, no. Pet allergies are caused by pet dander and hair, not by drool. Don't
> know what you mean by dribble tho'.
>
> > Then when a dog sees another dog...there is barking, fights, etc., and
> > sniffing in spots that are not right in a museum.
>
> My dog will do the sniff thing but he only barks when he's playing at the puppy
> park and he's never gotten into a fight.
>
> > Children do not do that.
>
> Riiiiight. They're little angels all the time. *snort*
>
> > And when a dog sees another dog...there is a social club started --- barking,
> > fights, sniffing in spots that are not right in a museum...and children do
> > not do that.
>
> You need to get to your local playground more often. Children can be louder and
> more destructive than dogs.
>
> >The office would spell like a pet kennel!
>
> Uh, again, the offices where I worked at that allowed pets smelt no different
> than offices with pets.
>
> > NO PETS IN MUSEUMS! Because you like pets, does not mean everyone else has
> > to be disturbed by what one feels is "a human" but is a dog!
>
> I don't think pets are human but I do think my dog is better behaved that a lot
> of children I see. And while I wasn't in Germany that long, I saw plenty of
> dogs in resturants and shops but narry a yip, sniff, or poop. Most of the time
> you didn't notice that they were around except for a water dish under the
> table. So if Germany can learn to deal with pets, why can't America?
>
> > Sorry, IMHO, pets are not human and should not be allowed in museums.
> > Children are human.
>
> Well I'd argue that some children aren't that human either. ;)
>
> Deb
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:24:23 -0500
> From: Heather-Marie Wells <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> I wanted to offer some advice about outdoor places at museums. I live in
> area that is marginally dog friendly. There are leash laws and ordinances.
> At nearly all the public parks there are discreet but hard to miss (if that
> makes sense) signs that ask people to pick up after their pets. Many of
> these sign posts also have baggie dispensers on them and there are usually
> dispensers near the trash cans as well.
>
> At our museum we have a rather nice walking trail around our historical
> buildings that is open to the public at any time (the buildings are locked
> during non business hours, but the grounds aren't fenced or anything so
> people can get in at anytime). As far as I know we don't have problems with
> dog "leavings;" although wild animal "leavings" might be a different matter
> altogether. We have a few trash cans available near picnic tables that are
> on our grounds at all times and we VERY rarely have problems with litter or
> anything else being left behind.
>
> So if you have grounds that the public can access at anytime perhaps you may
> need to consider signs gently reminding people to pick up after themselves
> and their pets and make sure to provide them with trash cans to do so.
>
>
> On an aside, I really don't want to do the whole dog vs. kid thing, but I
> have to say that I think a lot of the behavior is dependent on the parties
> who are suppose to be responsible. Pet owners and parents alike are the
> ones who teach their respective charges the correct behavior in situations.
>
> I also want to share that recently a mother with a toddler who was working
> on potty training had an accident. I walked in on the mother in the ladies
> room trying to clean up her toddler. I felt bad for her, because she was
> obviously embarrassed. And told her I was on staff and to let me know if
> there was anything I could do or if she need anything. The poor kid was
> saying "home, bath" at which point the mom had to say "No, son we're 2
> states away from home; you can't get a bath right now." The mother asked me
> for directions to the nearest Wal-Mart so she could get some new clothes and
> I gave them to her. However, she DID NOT tell me that there was a little
> pile of feces on our EXHIBIT HALL FLOOR!!!!!!!!!! I won't go into the
> trauma that the staff person who found it suffered.
>
> Just some food for thought,
> Heather Marie Wells
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to �Dig Yourself Out of Debt� from MSN
> Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx
>
> =========================================================
> Important Subscriber Information:
>
> The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ .
> You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:41:31 EDT
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Is the Museum World Going to the Dogs?
>
> -------------------------------1091313691
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Reasoned concerns about the presence of dogs (and other pets) in museums
> regarding issues of museum liability, consideration of visitors and care of
> collections appear to have led to a rather silly debate regarding the behaviour
> of
> children versus pets. I have both a dog and a child and find the whole
> comparison rather absurd. Children, even at barely one year of age, show an
> appreciation of things in a museum that will only deepen as they grow up. That
> will
> not happen with a dog and or other pet. Some museums might be places where
> pets would be acceptable but most are not. Arguing that pets should be welcome
> in a museum is more about self-indulgent, anthropomorphistic "me-centered"
> behaviour than about common sense. The bottom line is that certain behaviours
> are
> appropriate in a museum and some are not. Underlying the prohibition of
> certain behaviours are a host of very good reasons that cannot simply be
> dismissed. Those reasons that support the prohibition of pets were very well
> laid out
> in the initial posting that stimulated this argument.
>
> I direct a museum that happens to have a very broad audience that includes
> many people who have never visited a museum before. So we are constantly
> telling our visitors that, in the museum, they may not eat ice cream, drink pop,
> or
> have pets. We kindly tell them that those are not appropriate museum
> behaviours and try to help them learn how to visit a museum. So I am amazed and
> appalled that some museum employees think that they should be able to bring
> their
> pets to work. At the museum I direct, it is very clear that pets cannot be
> taken into the building by visitors or staff. Any staff person that defies that
> rule will receive a letter of reprimand and, if they continue to defy the
> rule, will eventually be looking for employment at a place where pets are more
> appropriate!
>
> =========================================================
> Important Subscriber Information:
>
> The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ .
> You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one
> line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message
> should read "help" (without the quotes).
>
> If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to
> [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff
> Museum-L" (without the quotes).
>
> -------------------------------1091313691
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> > rset=3DUS-ASCII">
>
> > f">
>

I direct a museum that happens to have a very broad audience that inclu=
> des many people who have never visited a museum before. So we are cons=
> tantly telling our visitors that, in the museum, they may not eat=20=
> ice cream, drink pop, or have pets. We kindly tell them that those are=
> not appropriate museum behaviours and try to help them learn how to visit a=
> museum. So I am amazed and appalled that some museum employees think=20=
> that they should be able to bring their pets to work. At the museum I=20=
> direct, it is very clear that pets cannot be taken into the building by visi=
> tors or staff. Any staff person that defies that rule will receive a l=
> etter of reprimand and, if they continue to defy the rule, will eventually b=
> e looking for employment at a place where pets are more appropriate! <=
> /DIV>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> 3D=3D=3D=3D
> Important Subscriber Information:
>

> If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to
> [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff
> Museum-L" (without the quotes).
>
> -------------------------------1091313691--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:52:31 -0600
> From: John Martinson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dogs
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C47737.EB114260
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Deb:
>
> First, I was not talking to you -- but in general terms. But, since =
> you replied.....
>
> You said: And people are allergic to perfumes and some dogs don't shed =
> enough or at all
> to cause allergies. Should we start banning perfumed visitors too?
>
> I reply: Again, museums are for people and NOT for animals/pets. A =
> dog is there only to follow its
> master...not to learn. Babies, as past discussions have mentioned, =
> need to be with parents.
>
> I would say more people are allergic to dogs than to perfume. And I =
> would rather smell some perfume than a dog with his rear hair smelling =
> and things a hanging. (if you know what I mean). ;o)
>
> My ex said her dog never shed hair. I put a tape on the chair and it =
> picked up lots of doggie hair.
> matching the hair of the dog. =20
>
> You said: Heh. I can point you to many people who don't bathe nearly as =
> often as they
> should, and they're not homeless people either. My dog rarely needs a =
> bath
> because he's got very short hair and thankfully stays away from icky =
> things. He
> smells a lot better and keeps cleaner than a lot of kids I know.
>
> I reply: But museums are for people and not for animals/pets. And that =
> is your dog...other
> dogs do need baths. And as a former curator....dog hair is bad on =
> collections, clean up,
> jam filters of air cleaners, etc.
>
> Most kids takes baths and your dog doesn't - no dander. I don't think =
> so. And when the dog is=20
> out rolling in the dirt - no dirt gets in his/her hair? =20
>
> You said: Again, I'd wager that the screaming 6 month old isn't getting =
> much out of the
> museum experience or that the toodler (don't you mean "toddler"???) who =
> constantly runs away from Mommy isn't either. Bored teen-agers and =
> boyfriends who get dragged to art galleries by
> their girlfriends probably aren't absorbing anything either. While my =
> dog
> probably won't learn much, he is appreciative of getting a walk which is =
> one up
> on the bored teen-agers and boyfriends.
>
> I reply: But other people are not appreciative of dogs in public =
> places. Museums are not for pets, but for people -- and Deb -- yup, =
> even for children. Surely in a fine art museum, where people want to =
> take in the art or exhibit, having a pet there (when it does not have to =
> be) it does would get visitors upset. Next you will say -- allow cows, =
> sheep and horses and "charge a fee."
>
> Parents, with children are allowed in museums. They are people. Dogs =
> and pets are personal things. You have them, but other people do not. =
> Keep them at home, in the kennel or walk them in the park. Surely, your =
> are not providing your animal a good walk in a museum -- looking at =
> exhibits? =20
>
> You said: Properly trimmed they don't and they are much less damaging =
> than high heels,
> sneakers, and stroller wheels.
>
> I reply: But museums are for not for pets, but for people. =20
>
> And how many people "properly trim" their animals? Very few...how many =
> people bath their animals?
> Very few. =20
>
> You said: I assume you mean sniff. (See we all make mistakes! LOL)
> My old dachshound (isn't it dachshund????) wasn't high enough off the =
> ground to
> sniff past your ankles. And again, properly trained dogs don't do that. =
> I've
> been pawed by plenty of kids who didn't know how to keep their hands to
> themselves.
>
> I reply: Even properly trained dogs are not allowed in most museums, =
> except Canine Companion or seeing eye dogs.
>
> Are people with dogs going to be required to show a paper that "their =
> animal is trained"? =20
>
> > Children earn money for a museum, pets do not.
>
> You said: Charge a pet admission.
>
> I reply: Oh get real! Sheesh! Then any pet could be coming into the =
> museum, trained or not trained.
> Where do you draw the line. Then discrimination cases would be filed =
> and you would have many upset customers. Or they will say "XYZ" Museum =
> allows my pet Snaggle-puss. Why don't you?" =20
>
> You said: Well that is a problem with inconsiderate dog owners. On the =
> flip side, how
> many kids pick up after themselves these days?
>
> I reply: We are talking about doggie do-do. We are talking about =
> exhibits, expensive buildings, art, collections, and dog hair and smell. =
> If dogs are allowed, I'm sure more doggie do-do and urine would be on =
> the floor than with children. =20
>
> I walk on many trails in our local canyons where dogs are allowed and =
> suppose to be on leach. Very=20
> few are, and very few clean them up. The train is covered with doggie =
> poop. The dogs are also chasing the wildlife, and leaving the trails on =
> private property. Again, this has to do with training and the owners =
> themselves not carrying. Their doggies own the world, and they are =
> allowed to poop and pee where ever they want...and on museum lawns. =
> Female doggie urine leaves yellow spots. More expenses to already tight =
> museum budgets. All for those doggies! =20
>
> You said: Uh, no. Pet allergies are caused by pet dander and hair, not =
> by drool. Don't
> know what you mean by dribble tho'.
>
> I reply: Allergies are not only caused by "pet dander and hair" but by =
> the drool of them licking themselves constantly, and that "material" =
> flying through the air when it is dried. It is the dried drool that is =
> a great deal of the problem with people who suffer from allergies, not =
> just the skin dander. =20
>
> The following is from a dog site: "There is no dog breed that is truly =
> non-allergenic (not allergy causing) because all (emphasis my own) dogs =
> produce dander (shed skin cells), saliva, and urine that people can be =
> allergic to. Allergy-producing proteins, allergens, in the dander or =
> saliva can produce nasal congestion, sneezing, itchy and watery eyes, =
> skin rashes, headaches, fatigue, and serious asthma attacks. The word =
> hypo-allergenic (less allergy causing) is typically used with skin care =
> products that tend to be less irritating to sensitive skin." Source: =
> http://members.aol.com/AHTerrier/allergies.html> Terrier/allergies.html>
>
> You said: My dog will do the sniff thing but he only barks when he's =
> playing at the puppy
> park and he's never gotten into a fight.
>
> I reply: And if your dog sniffed on me, I would be allowed to make the =
> museum pay for cleaning my clothing? If I were in a museum and a dog =
> comes up and drolls on me or puts a wet nose on me....and ruin a dress, =
> skirt or slacks I would be upset. Very few children would do that.
>
> You said: Riiiiight. They're little angels all the time. *snort*
>
> I reply: Riiiight. But children are allowed in museums, and dogs are =
> not. And you are speaking
> only about "your" own doggie. Are you implying all dogs are such well =
> mannered? I think not. =20
>
> I walk our dog and there are dogs that are passive, while others are =
> very aggressive. =20
>
> Are museum going to be legally binding for any dog bites, people who =
> trip on your animals leash or
> tip over exhibits or artifacts. Are dog owners going to pay for =
> damages? =20
>
> And what about dogs at outdoor parks, with chickens, cows, sheep. They =
> chase the animals,
> and people do not stop them. Dogs at our park were constantly killing =
> our rare breed of sheep,
> chickens and ducks. Yup, those well trained dogs.=20
>
> You said: You need to get to your local playground more often. Children =
> can be louder and
> more destructive than dogs.
>
> I reply: But museums are for people, and playgrounds are for children. =
> Children are excited,
> and do get loud..that is what they do at playgrounds. But for my child =
> to play and fall in a
> doggie do-do.....that is very upsetting. =20
>
> >The office would spell like a pet kennel!
>
> You said: Uh, again, the offices where I worked at that allowed pets =
> smelt no different
> than offices with pets.
>
> I reply: And most people with pets, are so use to the smell they cannot =
> smell animal smell in their=20
> own homes. However, a new person coming into house -- it does smell, =
> especially someone with allergies. Their eyes water, nose runs, etc.=20
>
> > NO PETS IN MUSEUMS! Because you like pets, does not mean everyone =
> else has
> > to be disturbed by what one feels is "a human" but is a dog!
>
> You said: I don't think pets are human but I do think my dog is better =
> behaved that a lot
> of children I see. And while I wasn't in Germany that long, I saw plenty =
> of
> dogs in resturants (do you mean restaurants?) and shops but narry a yip, =
> sniff, or poop. Most of the time
> you didn't notice that they were around except for a water dish under =
> the
> table. So if Germany can learn to deal with pets, why can't America?
>
> I reply: So museums are going to be required to keep water dishes, and =
> you don't think the
> slurping and lapping is not going to be disrupting the learning =
> experience? =20
>
> And golly gee, to sit in a restaurant and hear a dog lapping and =
> dripping to get a scrap of food,
> I would walk out. =20
>
> And you are speaking only of your dog. I am willing to say that that is =
> a very small percent of
> people who would have dogs trained enough to enter a museum. And are =
> they going to be
> on a leash or running free? =20
>
> > Sorry, IMHO, pets are not human and should not be allowed in museums.
> > Children are human.
>
> You said: Well I'd argue that some children aren't that human either. ;)
>
> I reply: But they are human...and no matter what you might say -- =
> doggies are dogs. And only
> those dogs that help the physically disabled are allowed in museums.=20
> =20
> John
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> 3D=3D=3D=3D
> Important Subscriber Information:
>
> The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ .
> You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one
> line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message
> should read "help" (without the quotes).
>
> If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to
> [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff
> Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C47737.EB114260
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
> > content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
>
>
>
> > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
> COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
> normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
> BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
> none"=20
> leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
> name=3D"Compose message area">
>

Deb:

First, I was not talking to you -- but in general =
> terms. =20
> But, since you replied.....

You said: And people are allergic to perfumes and some dogs don't =
> shed=20
> enough or at all
to cause allergies. Should we start banning perfumed =
>
> visitors too?

I reply: Again, museums are for people and NOT for=20
> animals/pets. A dog is there only to follow its

master...not to learn. Babies, as past discussions have =
>
> mentioned, need to be with parents.

I would say more people are allergic to dogs than to perfume. =
> And I=20
> would rather smell some perfume than a dog with his rear hair smelling =
> and=20
> things a hanging. (if you know what I mean). ;o)

My ex said her dog never shed hair. I put a tape on the =
> chair=20
> and it picked up lots of doggie hair.

matching the hair of the dog.

You said: Heh. I can point you to many people who don't bathe =
> nearly as=20
> often as they
should, and they're not homeless people either. My dog =
> rarely=20
> needs a bath
because he's got very short hair and thankfully stays =
> away from=20
> icky things. He
smells a lot better and keeps cleaner than a lot of =
> kids I=20
> know.

I reply: But museums are for people and not for =
> animals/pets. =20
> And that is your dog...other

dogs do need baths. And as a former curator....dog hair =
> is bad=20
> on collections, clean up,

jam filters of air cleaners, etc.

Most kids takes baths and your dog doesn't - no =
> dander. I=20
> don't think so. And when the dog is

out rolling in the dirt - no dirt gets in his/her hair? =
>
>

You said: Again, I'd wager that the screaming 6 month old =
> isn't=20
> getting much out of the
museum experience or that the toodler > color=3D#ff0000>(don't you mean "toddler"???) who =
> constantly runs=20
> away from Mommy isn't either. Bored teen-agers and boyfriends who get =
> dragged to=20
> art galleries by
their girlfriends probably aren't absorbing anything =
> either.=20
> While my dog
probably won't learn much, he is appreciative of getting =
> a walk=20
> which is one up
on the bored teen-agers and boyfriends.

I reply: But other people are not appreciative of dogs in =
> public=20
> places. Museums are not for pets, but for people -- and Deb =
> -- yup,=20
> even for children. Surely in a fine art museum, where people want =
> to take=20
> in the art or exhibit, having a pet there (when it does not have to =
> be) it=20
> does would get visitors upset. Next you will say =
> -- allow=20
> cows, sheep and horses and "charge a fee."

Parents, with children are allowed in museums. They are =
> people. Dogs=20
> and pets are personal things. You have them, but other people =
> do=20
> not. Keep them at home, in the kennel or walk them in =
> the=20
> park. Surely, your are not providing your animal a good =
> walk in=20
> a museum -- looking at exhibits?

You said: Properly =
> trimmed=20
> they don't and they are much less damaging than high heels,
sneakers, =
> and=20
> stroller wheels.

I reply: But museums are for not for pets, but for=20
> people.

And how many people "properly trim" their animals? Very =
>
> few...how many people bath their animals?

Very few.

You said: I assume you mean sniff. > color=3D#ff0000>(See=20
> we all make mistakes! LOL)

My old dachshound (isn't it =
> dachshund????)=20
> wasn't high enough off the ground to
sniff past your ankles. =
> And again,=20
> properly trained dogs don't do that. I've
been pawed by plenty of =
> kids who=20
> didn't know how to keep their hands to
themselves.

I reply: Even properly trained dogs are not allowed in most =
> museums,=20
> except Canine Companion or seeing eye dogs.

Are people with dogs going to be required to show a paper that =
> "their=20
> animal is trained"?

> Children earn money for a museum, pets do not.

You=20
> said: Charge a pet admission.

I reply: Oh get real! Sheesh! Then any pet could =
> be=20
> coming into the museum, trained or not trained.

Where do you draw the line. Then discrimination cases =
> would be=20
> filed and you would have many upset customers. Or they will say =
> "XYZ"=20
> Museum allows my pet Snaggle-puss. Why don't you?" =
>

You said: Well that is a problem with inconsiderate dog =
> owners.=20
> On the flip side, how
many kids pick up after themselves these=20
> days?

I reply: We are talking about doggie do-do.   We =
> are=20
> talking about exhibits, expensive buildings, art, collections, and dog =
> hair and=20
> smell.   If dogs are allowed, I'm sure more doggie do-do and =
> urine=20
> would be on the floor than with children.

I walk on many trails in our local canyons where dogs are allowed =
> and=20
> suppose to be on leach. Very

few are, and very few clean them up. The train is covered =
> with doggie=20
> poop. The dogs are also chasing the wildlife, and leaving the =
> trails on=20
> private property. Again, this has to do with training and =
> the owners=20
> themselves not carrying. Their doggies own the world, and they are =
> allowed=20
> to poop and pee where ever they want...and on museum lawns. Female =
> doggie=20
> urine leaves yellow spots. More expenses to already tight museum=20
> budgets. All for those doggies!

You said: Uh, no. Pet allergies are caused by pet dander and =
> hair, not=20
> by drool. Don't
know what you mean by dribble tho'.

I reply: Allergies are not only caused by "pet dander and =
> hair" but=20
> by the drool of them licking themselves constantly, and that "material" =
> flying=20
> through the air when it is dried. It is the dried drool that =
> is a=20
> great deal of the problem with people who suffer from allergies, not =
> just the=20
> skin dander.

The following is from a dog site: "There is no dog =
> breed that=20
> is truly non-allergenic (not allergy causing) > color=3D#ff0000>because=20
> all (emphasis my own) dogs produce dander (shed skin =
> cells),=20
> saliva, and urine that people can be allergic to. =
> Allergy-producing=20
> proteins, allergens, in the dander or saliva can produce nasal =
> congestion,=20
> sneezing, itchy and watery eyes, skin rashes, headaches, fatigue, and =
> serious=20
> asthma attacks. The word hypo-allergenic (less allergy causing) is =
> typically=20
> used with skin care products that tend to be less irritating to =
> sensitive=20
> skin." Source: > title=3Dhttp://members.aol.com/AHTerrier/allergies.html=20
> href=3D"http://members.aol.com/AHTerrier/allergies.html">http://members.a=
> ol.com/AHTerrier/allergies.html

You said: My dog will do the sniff thing but he only barks when =
> he's=20
> playing at the puppy
park and he's never gotten into a fight.

I reply: And if your dog sniffed on me, I would be allowed to =
> make=20
> the museum pay for cleaning my clothing? If I were in a =
> museum=20
> and a dog comes up and drolls on me or puts a wet nose on me....and =
> ruin a=20
> dress, skirt or slacks I would be upset. Very few =
> children=20
> would do that.

You said: Riiiiight. They're little angels =
> all the=20
> time. *snort*

I reply: Riiiight. But children are allowed in museums, and =
> dogs are=20
> not. And you are speaking

only about "your" own doggie. Are you implying all dogs are =
> such well=20
> mannered? I think not.

I walk our dog and there are dogs that are passive, while =
> others=20
> are very aggressive.

Are museum going to be legally binding for any dog bites, =
> people who=20
> trip on your animals leash or

tip over exhibits or artifacts. Are dog owners going to pay =
> for=20
> damages?

And what about dogs at outdoor parks, with chickens, cows, =
> sheep. =20
> They chase the animals,

and people do not stop them. Dogs at our park were constantly =
> killing=20
> our rare breed of sheep,

chickens and ducks. Yup, those well trained dogs.

You said: You need to get to your local playground more =
> often.=20
> Children can be louder and
more destructive than dogs.

I reply: But museums are for people, and playgrounds are for=20
> children. Children are excited,

and do get loud..that is what they do at playgrounds. But for =
> my=20
> child to play and fall in a

doggie do-do.....that is very upsetting.

>The office would spell like a pet kennel!

You said: Uh, again, the offices where I worked at that allowed =
> pets smelt=20
> no different
than offices with pets.

I reply: And most people with pets, are so use to the smell they=20
> cannot smell animal smell in their

own homes. However, a new person coming into =
> house --=20
> it does smell, especially someone with allergies. Their eyes =
> water, nose=20
> runs, etc.

> NO PETS IN MUSEUMS! Because you like pets, does not =
> mean=20
> everyone else has
> to be disturbed by what one feels is "a human" =
> but is=20
> a dog!

You said: I don't think pets are human but I do think my =
> dog is=20
> better behaved that a lot
of children I see. And while I wasn't in =
> Germany=20
> that long, I saw plenty of
dogs in resturants > color=3D#ff0000>(do you=20
> mean restaurants?) and shops but narry a yip, sniff, or =
> poop. Most=20
> of the time
you didn't notice that they were around except for a =
> water dish=20
> under the
table. So if Germany can learn to deal with pets, why can't =
>
> America?

I reply: So museums are going to be required to keep water =
> dishes,=20
> and you don't think the

slurping and lapping is not going to be disrupting the =
> learning=20
> experience?

And golly gee, to sit in a restaurant and hear a dog lapping and =
> dripping=20
> to get a scrap of food,

I would walk out.

And you are speaking only of your dog. I am willing to say =
> that that=20
> is a very small percent of

people who would have dogs trained enough to enter a museum. =
> And are=20
> they going to be

on a leash or running free?

> Sorry, IMHO, pets are not human and should not be allowed =
> in=20
> museums.
> Children are human.

You said: Well I'd argue =
> that some=20
> children aren't that human either. ;)

I reply: But they are human...and no matter what you might =
> say --=20
> doggies are dogs. And only

those dogs that help the physically disabled are allowed in=20
> museums.

John

> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> 3D=3D=3D=3D
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> End of MUSEUM-L Digest - 30 Jul 2004 to 31 Jul 2004 (#2004-190)
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