In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:

<<     According to one Web site that I found:  "... the four-in-hand knot
 (which dates back to the days of the coach in England, when the men on top
 of the coach would knot their neckties in this manner to prevent them from
 flying in the wind while they were driving)."
     I also found this explanation:

 http://www.leeallison.com/sub_history_four_in_hand.php

 Lynne >>

The brief explanation at the above site sounds reasonable, but there must be
a costume expert out there who could either shed a little more light on it,
verify it or refute it.  Despite Wendy Wiener's experience with formal neckwear,
the fact is that the ordinary, everyday (well, it used to be everyday until
we all got cool & casual) long tie which men wear for business (and which women
sometimes wore as well) is pretty universally known as a four-in-hand, and
that's what the dictionary calls it as well.  It's also known as a "necktie," as
distinguished from a bow tie which, despite the fact that it is also a tie
worn around the neck, is usually not called a necktie for some reason.
Four-in-hand also refers to the slipknot style usually employed with a four-in-hand
tie, as opposed to the Windsor, half-Windsor, and Shelby knot (which I just
found on a web site, never having heard of this style before), all used with
four-in-hand ties.

Perhaps the "four-in-hand" nomenclature for formal neckwear refers to the
knot rather than the tie itself--although I'm knot--oops, not--sure it's the same
knot.  There must be another name for the formal tie Wendy describes, because
it doesn't make sense to use the same name for two distinctly different
garments.  On the other hand, after decades of muddling by confused users of the
language, two very different objects or concepts often wind up with the same
name.  Consider the fact that "cleave" means both to separate and to join.  Go
figure.

Other, less common, neckwear types include the ascot and the cravat, which
are more scarf-like, and I'm not clear on how they're defined, since the
dictionary definitions are unclear.  Sometimes it takes an etymologist to unravel
such knotty problems.

Knot your grandfather's tie...

David Haberstich

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