@Cecelia - I echo what you said. THANK YOU @Heather for being brave. @Levon - Thank YOU also for your succinct and perfect response. Be kind, everyone. That's all. Just be kind. Tori <http://www.nashvillezoo.org/> *Tori Mason, CIG* Historic Site Manager 615-833-1534 x130 [log in to unmask] 3777 Nolensville Pike, Nashville, TN 37211 Take a Virtual Tour <https:[log in to unmask],-86.742484,3a,75y,231.67h,91.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipM1znoVVhltt2tZzLadiZqOCfWDV_JeZB1n2ie2!2e10!3e12!7i5654!8i2827> <http://www.nashvillezoo.org/signature> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 6:01 AM Levon Williams <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > @Bruce Markusen – Good morning! I'll *attempt* to make this succinct. You > would be doing yourself and everyone in this thread a huge favor to google > Robin DiAngelo's "White Fragility" before responding again. > > As several of your colleagues have repeatedly noted, your responses to > Heather George's post are in no way unique, inspired, relevant, or > surprising. They are in fact, all quite rote and in line with tried and > true methods to shut down conversations when the topic of race comes up in > traditionally white spaces. What you are offering is not "spirited debate". > It is an attempt to present yourself as the objective authority, as if > everything you know about Cooperstown is not informed by the perspectives > and biases of those from whom *you* learned it. > > To participate in any kind of productive dialogue on this topic, you will > first need to grapple with managing the discomfort you are experiencing > when that perceived objective authority is interrogated. We need to be > willing to own our privilege, build our emotional stamina, and challenge > ourselves to sit with the discomfort we feel when discussing race. > > If all of that sounds prescriptive, it's because it is. It is exhausting > to have the same damn conversation over and over again – *and* I found > your dismissal of Ms. George's expertise due to a typo to be particularly > annoying in this moment we are collectively experiencing. > > Be well. > > Levon Williams > Diversity, Equity, Accessibility, and Inclusion Senior Fellow – American > Alliance of Museums > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 10:39 PM CECELIA OTTENWELLER < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Heather, I’m so very pleased you posted and your points here are very >> valid and well stated. Bravo and Hugs. >> >> Cecelia >> >> *Cecelia Ottenweller* >> [log in to unmask] >> 713-302-2793 >> >> On Jun 24, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Heather George <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> She:kon all, >> >> Oh gosh, well I'm hesitant to walk into this discussion since I've >> primarily avoided the whole thing on social media since as a BIPOC person >> it's exhausting and emotionally upsetting but I suppose I don't get the >> privilege of thinking of this as a philosophical discussion. I can't >> address every point in this discussion - I'm very glad it is happening >> though and read all of the comments with great interest - in fact this is >> my first ever response to a MUSEUM-L thread. >> >> Two years ago we had this "debate" in my History of Human Rights Course - >> I was the only BIPOC person in the conversation in a cohort of history MA's >> and PhD students - 20 of us and I'm white passing and I was the only one >> arguing that not only are many of the statues historically inaccurate they >> are also bad art and perpetuate problematic myths. >> >> Thank you for posting the well thought out responses to the idea of these >> statues being put in museums and the challenges it presents (also museums >> are not neutral - an excellent and important point). >> >> To all those commenting on the ignorance or "purity of history" there is >> no such thing as pure history even we as museum professionals and >> historians bring a biase. History is taught, studied and thought about >> within the confines (values, limitations, ethics) of our own time and what >> our communities prioritize - what we write, preserve, and discuss is always >> biased - so the argument that this is re-writing history is a fallacy - we >> all know that even historic "primary" documents are biased - so perhaps we >> should all get off our own "high horses" and reflect on that - there is no >> pure history. >> >> James Fennimore Cooper and Cooperstown is a terrible example of >> historical preservation (sorry to call this one out but it particularly >> annoys me) - as an Indigenous scholar who studied at the Fenimore museum >> for a week I was appalled by the lack of information or blatant racism >> displayed by historic markers and monuments in this town - which is in the >> middle of Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / Iroquois) territory - there is a >> "native burial mound" with a plaque, "native hunter" statue and a plaque >> extolling the virtues of the Clinton Sullivan campaign. >> >> Finally something that stands out to me is that all of these statues (on >> public or private land) are all on Indigenous land - yes we are still here >> we are still have nations and governance systems, languages, ceremonies, >> food systems - sometimes imperfect thanks colonial trauma - but even in the >> US thanks to Marshall (who of course was acting in his own best interests) >> we are recognized as nations - and regardless of whether we have been >> disposed from the land through theft or (primarily fraudulent) treaties we >> are still here and belong to the land and have a responsibility to the land >> - so to talk about "public land / private land" that the statues are on is >> also a fallacy predicated on colonial narratives. >> >> For non BIPOC folks perhaps it is time to reflect that the current level >> of discomfort, perceived danger (to monuments to dead white guys), and >> social upheaval is nothing compared to the day to day acts of racism, >> marginalization, violence, systemic injustice and historical trauma faced >> by Black, Indigenous, People of Colour. The change we are seeing is long >> overdue - it's appalling it took a pandemic for us to have the time to >> reflect on this and discuss it - and hopefully make positive change - but I >> for one am grateful that we are living in this time. >> >> Heather >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:26 AM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> Who said it wasn't. and if you think the RED GUARD was just destroying >>> Buddhas that's as disgusting a level understanding for which the KKK could >>> have only hope to achieve. I can send pictures from the cultural >>> revolution given to me by those that survived the red guard. Again I have >>> walked the home of the RED GUARD. The KKK might have killed as many people >>> ever as ONE WEEK of the Red Guard if that many. let's see 5000 total >>> lynchings in recorded US history including the 1400 or so nonblacks >>> lynched. Do you think that compares to this? The Red Guard Killed(murdered >>> in public extrajudicial) as many as 230,000 in TWO YEARS. >>> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1969051/former-red-guards-remember-time-when-killing-was-normal >>> If you do then I have no words for you. What I can tell you is that >>> Michael and those destroying historical items are using the same propaganda >>> and making the same statements as the Red Guard. Why do I keep bringing up >>> the RED GUARD because people keep using the same propaganda? >>> >>> But hey congrats on the racist bit about a few buddhas. >>> >>> Randy S. Little >>> >>> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:57 PM Elizabeth Walton <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I am a former curator of history at Stone Mountain Park. I also grew up >>>> in the Stone Mountain area and it was a huge part of my childhood. >>>> Comparing it to an ancient Buddha is... I can't even find words to express >>>> how wrong that is. >>>> >>>> To be clear, the UDC did not fully fund the carving on Stone Mountain. >>>> Helen Plane and the UDC did raise funds and the first carving was a >>>> complete failure due to lack of funding and carving was stopped in 1925 and >>>> again in 1928. Decades later, as a statement against segregation, The state >>>> of Georgia took over the project and the land.Until 1960 the KKK had the >>>> legal right to hold rallies on the property in perpetuity. They still held >>>> rallies well into the 1980's. At that point the surrounding area >>>> demographics shifted. >>>> >>>> From Wikipedia: >>>> "Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that >>>> year, Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold >>>> celebrations as they desired.[29] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-29> The >>>> influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a >>>> carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. She >>>> suggested in a letter to the first sculptor, Gutzon Borglum: >>>> >>>> I feel it is due to the Klan[,] which saved us from Negro dominations >>>> [sic] and carpetbag <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger> rule, >>>> that it be immortalized on Stone Mountain. Why not represent a small group >>>> of them in their nightly uniform approaching in the distance?[6] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 >>>> [20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Encycl-20> >>>> >>>> The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association >>>> (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and >>>> Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack >>>> the SMCMA with Klan members.[30] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-ngeorgia.com-30> The >>>> SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, continued >>>> fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal >>>> government, which in 1925 issued special fifty-cent coins >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Commemorative_Coin> with >>>> the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them." >>>> >>>> "In response to Brown v. Board of Education >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education> of 1954 >>>> and the birth of the Civil Rights Movement >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Movement>, in 1958, at the >>>> urging of segregationist Governor Marvin Griffin >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Griffin>,[6] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6>:21 the >>>> Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain at a >>>> price of $1.125 million. In 1963 Walker Hancock >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Hancock> was selected to >>>> complete the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by >>>> Roy Faulkner >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roy_Faulkner_(sculptor)&action=edit&redlink=1>, >>>> who in 1985 opened the Stone Mountain Carving Museum (now closed) on nearby >>>> Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history.[21] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-21> The >>>> carving was completed on March 3, 1972.[22] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-SMHistory-22> An >>>> extensive archival collection related to the project is now at Emory >>>> University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University>, with the >>>> bulk of the materials dating from 1915 to 1930; the finding aid >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_aid> provides a history of the >>>> project, and an index of the papers contained in the collection.[18] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Emory-18> >>>> Stone Mountain Park officially opened on April 14, 1965 – 100 years to >>>> the day after Lincoln's assassination >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Abraham_Lincoln>.[6] >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-McKinney-6> Four >>>> flags of the Confederacy >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America> are >>>> flown.[23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-23> The >>>> Stone Mountain Memorial Lawn "contains...thirteen terraces — one for each >>>> Confederate state.... Each terrace flies the flag that the state flew as >>>> member of the Confederacy."[24 >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#cite_note-Myajc-24>" >>>> >>>> >>>> The land the park is on is now an independent organization called the >>>> Stone MOuntain Memorial Association that is self funded through >>>> parking fees. The attractions are managed through Herschend >>>> Entertainment. >>>> >>>> It was 100% started to celebrate not just the Confederacy but also the >>>> KKK. >>>> >>>> People who are promoting removal do not seem to understand how large it >>>> is. It is larger than Mount Rushmore. >>>> >>>> I do not promote removal but it should be interpreted honestly. Its >>>> entire creation was racist. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 11:18 PM Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Let just go with Teddy for a second from your last sentence. So from >>>>> what you said. you clearly got what actually happened in history. We >>>>> conquered the native people of the landmass. AND TO THIS DAY mistreat them. >>>>> OBAMA violated codified treaties. Please never mention him again because >>>>> of this if you approve of the removal of Teddy R. . oye. Many of the >>>>> Southern statues were originally paid for and build by PRIVATE FUNDS >>>>> originally on private land. Stone Mountain by the D.O.C. So it clearly >>>>> shows how those people felt at a point in history when they RAISED THE >>>>> FUNDS AND CARVED THE STATUE. I bet your brain melts when you look at an >>>>> east Asian map and see the markers for Buddhist temples. Even though that >>>>> is the symbol used for nearly 1500 years in japan alone. >>>>> Oh just curious when do we give back Hawaii since we very clearly >>>>> stole the entire island chain. >>>>> >>>>> My wife is asking when you are planning to remove all the FDR statues >>>>> from public display. She has an issue with him TAKING the property of >>>>> Americans. Holding them in camps in such wonderful locations such as Tulle >>>>> Lake CA. and then giving them $25 when released to return to none of their >>>>> property existing or having been sold and claimed by others. >>>>> >>>>> I'm going to guess you have never moved around very much. >>>>> >>>>> Ok now that we have rehashed the same arguments made by the RED GUARD >>>>> again. I'm guessing that you somehow see your point of view as more >>>>> justified then theirs. It is not. Hey Mikey watch this video turn on >>>>> subtitles and I can promise you that it is the sentiment of most Japanese. >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLrpa1ojeKs&pp=wgIECgIIAQ%3D%3D >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Randy S. Little >>>>> http://www.rslittle.com/ >>>>> *http://www.imdb.me/randylittle <http://www.imdb.me/randylittle>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:11 PM Michael Rebman <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>> >>>>>> There has been debate for decades about most of these statues in >>>>>> question. There have been public debates and lawsuits. Various southern >>>>>> states passed state-level laws within the past twenty years either >>>>>> protecting statues (like North Carolina) or revoking protections for >>>>>> statues (like Virginia). The calls for taking down the statues and name >>>>>> dedications of Oñate started in the 1990s and earlier. This is not a >>>>>> sudden debate that has appeared overnight, and I do not think anybody in >>>>>> the Museum-L listserv has endorsed vandalism or destruction of property. >>>>>> >>>>>> Museum exhibits are also different from public art in that an exhibit >>>>>> reflects the views of the exhibit designers, while public art serves as a >>>>>> public endorsement of the subject matter by the local government and by >>>>>> taxpayers. Or if it is on private property, it acts as an endorsement by >>>>>> the owners of the private property. Someone who looks at a statue of Jonas >>>>>> Salk would not gain knowledge of modern medicine, and someone who looks at >>>>>> a statue of James Fennimore Cooper would not gain knowledge of early >>>>>> American prose, but those viewers would know that the localities endorse >>>>>> the subjects of the statues, and the viewers might be inclined to >>>>>> subsequently learn more about the subjects. A plaque at the foot or >>>>>> pedestal of the statue would not be able to contain suitable and nuanced >>>>>> information, just a short summary of why the subject is revered by the >>>>>> town. A person unfamiliar with James Fennimore Cooper would see the >>>>>> statue, read the plaque, and simply understand that a guy lived in that >>>>>> town a few hundred years ago and wrote books, and the town is glad that the >>>>>> author lived there. That is the entire purpose of non-artistic and >>>>>> non-religious statuary, to revere and celebrate the subject of the statue. >>>>>> The viewers are not learning about the subjects themselves, but about >>>>>> attitudes held about the subjects. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thus, someone viewing a statue of Roosevelt on horseback in an >>>>>> attempt at a Rough Rider uniform, in front of a partially-naked African man >>>>>> and a slightly more clothed Native American man, both of whom are carrying >>>>>> Roosevelt's gear, would come to the conclusion that the institution that >>>>>> holds such a statue on public display outside would be fine with the >>>>>> attitudes on colonialism and the White Man's Burden that the statue >>>>>> conveys. Had it been a statue of Roosevelt hiking through the forest with >>>>>> a walking stick, that would be a different matter. Had it been a statue of >>>>>> Roosevelt standing between the Tsar of Russia and the Emperor of Japan, >>>>>> forcing them to shake hands, that would also be a different matter. >>>>>> However, statues even with plaques do not convey educational information >>>>>> and nuance about subject matters, just the overall sense of what attitude >>>>>> people should have about the subject matters. A display of statues in a >>>>>> museum could have text panels, videos, and docents to provide details. A >>>>>> statue in a park, in a public square, or at the front door of a courthouse >>>>>> or city hall would simply send the message that the people of that >>>>>> particular town consider the subject to be worthy of veneration, leaving it >>>>>> up to the viewer to find out why. That is why Black people have spent the >>>>>> past few decades trying to relocate or store away the statues of Lee and >>>>>> Forrest, and why Native Americans have been trying for decades to remove >>>>>> statues of Oñate and Jackson. Because those statues represent people who >>>>>> engaged in oppressive acts against minorities, from treason in furtherance >>>>>> of protecting slavery to slave trading to massacres to ethnic cleansing and >>>>>> genocide. >>>>>> >>>>>> The overall problem is not that the statues represent long-dead >>>>>> people who might be disliked by some living people. And it is also not >>>>>> that the statues represent good people who might have slipped up once or >>>>>> twice. It is that the statues in question celebrate people as they were >>>>>> doing things that run against American ideals, and are posed and dressed to >>>>>> represent those very specific terrible things. The statues of Lee and >>>>>> Forrest always show them in Confederate uniforms, not in civilian clothes >>>>>> while delivering turkeys to poor people on Christmas. The statues of Oñate >>>>>> show him in armor scouting around and fighting in New Mexico, not sitting >>>>>> around a fireplace telling stories to his children. The crowning >>>>>> achievements of Lee and Forrest were their battlefield victories in their >>>>>> war against the United States, while Oñate's crowning achievement was >>>>>> massacring hundreds of Native Americans and chopping off the feet of >>>>>> survivors, and Jackson's crowning achievement was the ethnic cleansing of >>>>>> the southeast and the deaths of thousands of Native Americans. These are >>>>>> not simply "flaws", but reprehensible acts that run contrary to the values >>>>>> of liberty, equality, and justice. The Apollo astronauts had flaws, but >>>>>> statues of astronauts would celebrate space exploration and not whatever >>>>>> flaws they had. The same goes for Martin Luther King Jr., Sally Ride, Mary >>>>>> Golda Ross, and Doris Miller, and their extraordinary achievements as >>>>>> common people. A statue of a Confederate general on horseback in uniform >>>>>> inherently celebrates a reprehensible flaw. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is why people have been calling for statue removal for decades. >>>>>> The statues represent a very visual message about the towns that have those >>>>>> statues, and the statues present a very strong message to people who view >>>>>> them. The statues of Lee and Forrest tell viewers, especially Black >>>>>> viewers, that "this town believes in slavery and the oppression of Black >>>>>> people and wishes the south had won". The statues of Oñate and Grant >>>>>> boldly state to Native Americans that "you have been conquered". The >>>>>> American Museum of Natural History saw the message conveyed by that >>>>>> particular statue of Roosevelt, and decided to cease displaying it in a >>>>>> public square. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael R. <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:56 PM Markusen, Bruce < >>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> How would you like it if citizens came into your Museum and simply >>>>>>> tore down an exhibit they considered offensive, without debate, without >>>>>>> argument, without any other consideration? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >>>>>> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >>>>>> <https://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >>>>> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >>>>> <https://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >>>> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >>>> <https://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >>> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >>> <https://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Heather George >> >> PhD Candidate, History >> M.A. Public History >> B.A. Hon History and Indigenous Studies >> O.C.G.C Museum Management and Curatorship >> >> View my LinkedIn Profile: >> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115 >> <https://ca.linkedin.com/in/heather-george-06673115> >> >> *I acknowledge that I live and work on the traditional territories of the >> Attawandaron (Neutral), Anishnaabeg, and Haudenosaunee (Six Nations / >> Iroquois) Nations. The University of Waterloo is situated on the Haldimand >> Tract, land promised to the Haudenosaunee by Governor Haldimand in 1784, >> which includes six miles on each side of the Grand River. * >> >> *For general information about Indigenous >> history please visit: https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home >> <https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home>/ * >> >> *For more information about Six Nations of the Grand River Land >> claims please read: http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf >> <http://www.sixnations.ca/SNGlobalSolutionsBookletFinal.pdf>* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> <https://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: >> https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 >> > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: > https://HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM/scripts/wa-HOME.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 > ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . 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