Certainly that is a concern, but only if you name the collector. Judging only by this thread, the collection is much more interesting as a question of motive and legality than it would be as "this is Jane Doe, and these are her Jars of Dirt." An anonymous recreation of the collection would hold your visitors' attention in the same way you've grabbed our's.

Nick

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Nina I can't wait to come to your museum of condoned law breaking.
Can I just take stuff I'm not supposed to from your museum?

Randy S. Little

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Nina Simon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> My only concern with this is that it implicates and endangers the collector.
> I'm not sure we're willing to do that. We want to all take the risk (or not)
> together.
>
> Nina
>
>
>
> On May 31, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Nick Partridge wrote:
>
> Dave,
> In light of your clarification: why not just recreate the exhibit with
> domestic soil? Get a bunch of vials and a variety of soil samples. Label
> them from different countries. Then state on the exhibit label that its a
> reproduction of a collection that this person obtained illegally, and go
> into the motives and issues surrounding her actions. You're right: it's
> a fascinating component of your exhibit. By using a recreation of it, you
> can not only use this great example of a personal collection but also go
> into the illegalities of it. It will make it much more interesting. As for
> displaying the original: it's far too dangerous to involve yourself and your
> institution.
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Selma Thomas <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your comments! I’ve been watching this discussion and
>> wondering – what about the ethics involved? It’s not just a legal issue but
>> also an ethical one. If a country makes it illegal to export, or import,
>> organic material, how do museums set themselves above this law?   Aren’t we
>> all mindful of the cultural and natural plundering that has taken place for
>> centuries? Don’t we owe those home countries some respect, especially if we
>> are cultural visitors?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1
========================================================================Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 20:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> From: Peter Gale <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Exhibit Style Guides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> Allie. in the past, I was informed by (subjected to?) various academic guidelines, and after several years of exhibit interpretation, I retain a respect for them. I was attempting to emphasize that guidelines not 'take over' the creative process as approaches change and evolve. ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). ========================================================================Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 17:39:56 -0500 Reply-To: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> From: "BECKER, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F7E.4DA07FD2" Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F7E.4DA07FD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nina, There may be ways to tell the story in a way that protects the identity of the collector but draws out the questions and concerns that this story raises, as well as some empathy for what soil can represent. This story has many layers to it- the soil as representative and symbolism for places and experiences, the emotional connection the collector has, as well as the legal and ethical boundaries that were crossed. Does the collector's identity have to be revealed in order to create a compelling story? We have had a pretty engaging conversation without knowing the identity of the collector or seeing the collection. Perhaps there is a way to engage the visitors in this same type of conversation, a what do you think type of interactive that people can post their thoughts and opinions to. You may be interested in contacting the Field Museum in Chicago. They have an exhibit on soil, and there are soil samples on display in this exhibit, that show a range and diversity of soil that most people are not aware of. It could be a nice visual that would help show just how interesting soil can be, which may be a necessary part of connecting with the story. Good luck! I'll be very interested to hear about the final exhibit. Dave ________________________________ From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nina Simon Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? Hi Nick, My only concern with this is that it implicates and endangers the collector. I'm not sure we're willing to do that. We want to all take the risk (or not) together. Nina On May 31, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Nick Partridge wrote: Dave, In light of your clarification: why not just recreate the exhibit with domestic soil? Get a bunch of vials and a variety of soil samples. Label them from different countries. Then state on the exhibit label that its a reproduction of a collection that this person obtained illegally, and go into the motives and issues surrounding her actions. You're right: it's a fascinating component of your exhibit. By using a recreation of it, you can not only use this great example of a personal collection but also go into the illegalities of it. It will make it much more interesting. As for displaying the original: it's far too dangerous to involve yourself and your institution. Thanks, Nick On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Selma Thomas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Thank you for your comments! I've been watching this discussion and wondering - what about the ethics involved? It's not just a legal issue but also an ethical one. If a country makes it illegal to export, or import, organic material, how do museums set themselves above this law? Aren't we all mindful of the cultural and natural plundering that has taken place for centuries? Don't we owe those home countries some respect, especially if we are cultural visitors? From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BECKER, DAVID Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:46 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? What is the goal of the exhibit? If the goal is to show differences in dirt from around the world, then dirt can be obtained through legal and ethical means. If the exhibit is about collection and the collecting process, what is the message that the museum wants to send about the collection process and how does this particular collection fit in? It could be the basis for an interesting discussion about the ethics of collection. Those questions could be raised through other representations of the collection or through other collections? Does the full collection need to be physically present in the museum? I personally don't agree with calling it art as that was not the intent of the collection or the collector, i.e. it was not done by an artist with an intent to make art for a stated artistic purpose or message. To call it art for convenience sake is not in keeping with the artistic discipline that calling it art would represent. I guess I see it as a bigger issue than has been presented in the initial e-mail. If this naturalist had illegally transported a cultural artifact without permission would that be o.k. to display? If this naturalist had transported the hide or fur of an animal that had been killed illegally, would that be ok to display? When I go to a nature center, there are signs that tell me to take only pictures, and not take anything else with me: Is it ok for me to ignore those signs for the sake of my personal collection? Would this same naturalist condone this same behavior if was going to be conducted on a larger scale by 100 people, or by 1000 people, or by everyone? I think there are issues and considerations here that go beyond the issue of whether it is legal or not. Dave Dave Becker Senior Manager of Learning Experiences Chicago Zoological Society ________________________________ From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pickering, Bob Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:51 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? Whether the dirt is dangerous or not, isn't there an issue of displaying material that is known to be illegal? Does calling it "art" absolve the museum of responsibility? Bob Robert B. Pickering, PhD Director of Curatorial Affairs & Public Programs, Gilcrease Museum; Director, Museum Science and Management, University of Tulsa 1400 N. Gilcrease Museum Rd Tulsa, OK 74127 (918) 596-2706 Office (918) 596-2770 Fax (918) 805-4780 Cell [log in to unmask] From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nina Simon Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:07 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? This one is for the museum lawyers and collection management gurus out there. For an upcoming temporary exhibition on collections, we would like to show a collection of vials of dirt that a local naturalist collected on her travels around the world. The challenge is that much of this dirt was transferred into the US illegally (i.e. from countries where they are strict about making sure that organic material doesn't enter or leave the country) or was obtained with some trespassing (i.e. from celebrities' yards). She is nervous about exhibiting the dirt in public for this reason. My sense is that if we can call this art, it might not be a problem. Frankly, I don't think it's a big problem period - there's no real risk or danger to the dirt - but I want to learn more about how to address this issue. Do you know anyone who might have some expertise to bear in this arena? Thank you, Nina Nina Simon Executive Director Santa Cruz Museum of Art & History 831.429.1964 x7018 Come visit us at 705 Front Street in Santa Cruz Get involved at www.santacruzmah.org or on Facebook ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F7E.4DA07FD2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nina,

There may be ways to tell the story in a way that protects the identity of the collector but draws out the questions and concerns that this story raises, as well as some empathy for what soil can represent. This story has many layers to it- the soil as representative and symbolism for places and experiences, the emotional connection the collector has, as well as the legal and ethical boundaries that were crossed. Does the collector’s identity have to be revealed in order to create a compelling story? We have had a pretty engaging conversation without knowing the identity of the collector or seeing the collection. Perhaps there is a way to engage the visitors in this same type of conversation, a what do you think type of interactive that people can post their thoughts and opinions to.

You may be interested in contacting the Field Museum in Chicago. They have an exhibit on soil, and there are soil samples on display in this exhibit, that show a range and diversity of soil that most people are not aware of. It could be a nice visual that would help show just how interesting soil can be, which may be a necessary part of connecting with the story.

Good luck! I’ll be very interested to hear about the final exhibit.

Dave

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nina Simon
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?

Hi Nick,

My only concern with this is that it implicates and endangers the collector. I'm not sure we're willing to do that. We want to all take the risk (or not) together.

Nina

On May 31, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Nick Partridge wrote:

Dave,

In light of your clarification: why not just recreate the exhibit with domestic soil? Get a bunch of vials and a variety of soil samples. Label them from different countries. Then state on the exhibit label that its a reproduction of a collection that this person obtained illegally, and go into the motives and issues surrounding her actions. You're right: it's a fascinating component of your exhibit. By using a recreation of it, you can not only use this great example of a personal collection but also go into the illegalities of it. It will make it much more interesting. As for displaying the original: it's far too dangerous to involve yourself and your institution.

Thanks,

Nick

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Selma Thomas <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thank you for your comments! I’ve been watching this discussion and wondering – what about the ethics involved? It’s not just a legal issue but also an ethical one. If a country makes it illegal to export, or import, organic material, how do museums set themselves above this law?   Aren’t we all mindful of the cultural and natural plundering that has taken place for centuries? Don’t we owe those home countries some respect, especially if we are cultural visitors?

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of BECKER, DAVID
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?

What is the goal of the exhibit? If the goal is to show differences in dirt from around the world, then dirt can be obtained through legal and ethical means.

If the exhibit is about collection and the collecting process, what is the message that the museum wants to send about the collection process and how does this particular collection fit in? It could be the basis for an interesting discussion about the ethics of collection. Those questions could be raised through other representations of the collection or through other collections? Does the full collection need to be physically present in the museum?

I personally don’t agree with calling it art as that was not the intent of the collection or the collector, i.e. it was not done by an artist with an intent to make art for a stated artistic purpose or message. To call it art for convenience sake is not in keeping with the artistic discipline that calling it art would represent.

I guess I see it as a bigger issue than has been presented in the initial e-mail. If this naturalist had illegally transported a cultural artifact without permission would that be o.k. to display? If this naturalist had transported the hide or fur of an animal that had been killed illegally, would that be ok to display? When I go to a nature center, there are signs that tell me to take only pictures, and not take anything else with me: Is it ok for me to ignore those signs for the sake of my personal collection? Would this same naturalist condone this same behavior if was going to be conducted on a larger scale by 100 people, or by 1000 people, or by everyone? I think there are issues and considerations here that go beyond the issue of whether it is legal or not.

Dave

Dave Becker

Senior Manager of Learning Experiences

Chicago Zoological Society

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pickering, Bob
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?

Whether the dirt is dangerous or not, isn’t there an issue of displaying material that is known to be illegal? Does calling it “art” absolve the museum of responsibility?

Bob

Robert B. Pickering, PhD

Director of Curatorial Affairs & Public Programs, Gilcrease Museum;

Director, Museum Science and Management, University of Tulsa

1400 N. Gilcrease Museum Rd

Tulsa, OK 74127

(918) 596-2706 Office

(918) 596-2770 Fax

(918) 805-4780 Cell

[log in to unmask]

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nina Simon
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?

This one is for the museum lawyers and collection management gurus out there.

For an upcoming temporary exhibition on collections, we would like to show a collection of vials of dirt that a local naturalist collected on her travels around the world. The challenge is that much of this dirt was transferred into the US illegally (i.e. from countries where they are strict about making sure that organic material doesn't enter or leave the country) or was obtained with some trespassing (i.e. from celebrities' yards). She is nervous about exhibiting the dirt in public for this reason.

My sense is that if we can call this art, it might not be a problem. Frankly, I don't think it's a big problem period - there's no real risk or danger to the dirt - but I want to learn more about how to address this issue. Do you know anyone who might have some expertise to bear in this arena?

Thank you,

Nina

Nina Simon

Executive Director

Santa Cruz Museum of Art & History

831.429.1964 x7018

Come visit us at 705 Front Street in Santa Cruz

Get involved at www.santacruzmah.org or on Facebook

To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1

To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1

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------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F7E.4DA07FD2-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 19:12:14 -0500 Reply-To: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Museum discussion list <[log in to unmask]> From: "BECKER, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F8B.3285FA74" Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F8B.3285FA74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick, You and I are one a similar page. I have really enjoyed this discussion. I am also aware that I am a bigger "museum geek" than the average visitor, so it may take a little bit more work to get the visitors hooked into a debate over when it and isn't o.k. to display illegal dirt, but it sure would be a lot of fun to pilot and prototype to see if this same type of conversation/debate could be generated among visiting public. Dave ________________________________ From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Partridge Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:01 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt? Nina, Certainly that is a concern, but only if you name the collector. Judging only by this thread, the collection is much more interesting as a question of motive and legality than it would be as "this is Jane Doe, and these are her Jars of Dirt." An anonymous recreation of the collection would hold your visitors' attention in the same way you've grabbed our's. Nick On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Nina I can't wait to come to your museum of condoned law breaking. Can I just take stuff I'm not supposed to from your museum? Randy S. Little On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Nina Simon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi Nick, > > My only concern with this is that it implicates and endangers the collector. > I'm not sure we're willing to do that. We want to all take the risk (or not) > together. > > Nina > > > > On May 31, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Nick Partridge wrote: > > Dave, > In light of your clarification: why not just recreate the exhibit with > domestic soil? Get a bunch of vials and a variety of soil samples. Label > them from different countries. Then state on the exhibit label that its a > reproduction of a collection that this person obtained illegally, and go > into the motives and issues surrounding her actions. You're right: it's > a fascinating component of your exhibit. By using a recreation of it, you > can not only use this great example of a personal collection but also go > into the illegalities of it. It will make it much more interesting. As for > displaying the original: it's far too dangerous to involve yourself and your > institution. > Thanks, > Nick > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Selma Thomas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Thank you for your comments! I've been watching this discussion and >> wondering - what about the ethics involved? It's not just a legal issue but >> also an ethical one. If a country makes it illegal to export, or import, >> organic material, how do museums set themselves above this law? Aren't we >> all mindful of the cultural and natural plundering that has taken place for >> centuries? Don't we owe those home countries some respect, especially if we >> are cultural visitors? >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1 ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). ------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F8B.3285FA74 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nick,

You and I are one a similar page. I have really enjoyed this discussion. I am also aware that I am a bigger “museum geek” than the average visitor, so it may take a little bit more work to get the visitors hooked into a debate over when it and isn’t o.k. to display illegal dirt, but it sure would be a lot of fun to pilot and prototype to see if this same type of conversation/debate could be generated among visiting public.

Dave

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Partridge
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?

Nina,

Certainly that is a concern, but only if you name the collector. Judging only by this thread, the collection is much more interesting as a question of motive and legality than it would be as "this is Jane Doe, and these are her Jars of Dirt." An anonymous recreation of the collection would hold your visitors' attention in the same way you've grabbed our's.

Nick

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Randy Little <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Nina I can't wait to come to your museum of condoned law breaking.
Can I just take stuff I'm not supposed to from your museum?

Randy S. Little

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Nina Simon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> My only concern with this is that it implicates and endangers the collector.
> I'm not sure we're willing to do that. We want to all take the risk (or not)
> together.
>
> Nina
>
>
>
> On May 31, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Nick Partridge wrote:
>
> Dave,
> In light of your clarification: why not just recreate the exhibit with
> domestic soil? Get a bunch of vials and a variety of soil samples. Label
> them from different countries. Then state on the exhibit label that its a
> reproduction of a collection that this person obtained illegally, and go
> into the motives and issues surrounding her actions. You're right: it's
> a fascinating component of your exhibit. By using a recreation of it, you
> can not only use this great example of a personal collection but also go
> into the illegalities of it. It will make it much more interesting. As for
> displaying the original: it's far too dangerous to involve yourself and your
> institution.
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Selma Thomas <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your comments! I’ve been watching this discussion and
>> wondering – what about the ethics involved? It’s not just a legal issue but
>> also an ethical one. If a country makes it illegal to export, or import,
>> organic material, how do museums set themselves above this law?   Aren’t we
>> all mindful of the cultural and natural plundering that has taken place for
>> centuries? Don’t we owe those home countries some respect, especially if we
>> are cultural visitors?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1

To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1
------_=_NextPart_001_01CD3F8B.3285FA74--