I'd like to add a couple of points/comments/questions to this great discussion in no particular order.
1. Don't lump Resumes and CV's into the same pile. They are not the same, even though the words are used interchangeably in informal conversation. A resume is skill or experienced based and are for non-academic jobs. They tend to be shorter and should summarize your education and experience and hopefully match them to the job opening. CV's on the other hand are specifically for academic or similar jobs. They can be any length and should list all, or pert near all as to make no difference, courses taught, research, publications and talks, and service to past employers. They are intended to land an academic job and then to climb the tenure ladder. There really is no page maximum, but no padding, and I have seen some that go well over ten pages because they contain brief abstracts for important publications.
I point this out not to be nitpicky for nitpicking's sake, but there can be a real confusion out there as evidenced by the question and the answers on this thread. The original question was how long a resume/CV should be and all subsequent answers seemed to assume resume, not CV. I have noticed job ads in the museum world using the terms interchangeably and this can cause confusion among applicants who, knowing the difference, may not know which to send.
If a job does not have original research and publications as one of its major qualifications or duties they probably want a resume.
I point this out to plead for clarity in the job market. If you want a relatively short summary of experience and skills, ask for resume. If you want a longer list of scholarship and publications ask for a CV. As someone who has looked for work off and on over the last 20 years it drives me crazy when employers are vague about what they want. Especially when they put something in the ad discouraging calls or emails asking for clarification.
2. I agree with what everyone has said about cover letters. Before I dropped out of the real world and became a graduate student I read thousands of resume's (not CV's) for both part time and full time work and it was shocking how underused or poorly used the cover letter is. They aren't useless. A good one makes a positive impression and a bad or neutral one makes a negative impression. Either way it helps a potential employer sort out a huge stack of resumes.
In the same token, what do people (applicants or employers) think of the goal statement in a resume? I don't think I have ever read one that was worth a darn, and quite a few are amusing. (and the absolute last thing you want is for a potential employer to application) Either they are written in such abstract resume-speak as to be meaningless or they are written so specifically for the job opening under consideration you wonder what the applicant will do if they don't get the job? I have never learned anything of value from the goal statement and took it off my own resume and advised others to take any sentiment they might have put in there in their cover letter. But this Spring at AAM I went to a resume writing workshop and the instructor was adamant that one be included. Maybe it is like a cover letter. Useful, but so under or poorly used as to become meaningless.
I am interested in other's thoughts on this.
What does a good career goal statement on a resume look like? What information would you ideally like to see from an applicant there that cannot be contained elsewhere? Do you use one? What purpose does it serve you when writing your resume?
3. Lastly, about eight years ago I was being laid off from a really good job and given 6 months notice (piece of advice: that is way to long to be a short timer. I am no expert, but a month, max) I was able to really take my time looking for just the right job and attended a number of workshops and classes on finding a job including a one-on-one consultation at AAM in St. Louis. At the time there was strong, though not universal, sentiment that all the old rules for resume and cover letter writing were being thrown out the window by electronic communication. Since so many applications were being done through the internet, including emailing resumes, new procedures were emerging in the HR field that were game changers. Page count, for example, is relatively meaningless online. Your resume may appear as 2-3 pages on your computer, but when the employer opens it, maybe in a different word processing program (pdf's would be stable obviously) it might be longer or shorter or may appear as one long continuous page. Even a paper resume/letter application mailed traditionally would, more likely than not, be scanned, OCR'ed and sorted using some fancy algorithm that could search for terms related to the job opening. Typically done by an HR professional not a content specialist. So I was told to use normal white copy paper (no fancy cotton bond or parchment colors), clear 12 point san serif fonts, no staples, no folding, no graphics etc to facilitate scanning and I was told to parrot back the words from a job announcement in my letter and/or resume.
It all seemed very impersonal to me, but that was the advice I was getting. I took it and got a dream job at a large museum complex. It should also be noted that I think this was a medium or large museum issue, or small museum attached to a larger institution such as some level of government or university. That's what I was looking for at the time, so I took the advice. Now correlation isn't causation, but I was thankful for the advice and I think it worked for me.
That was 8 years ago and if anything the application process is much more electronic. I have noticed that more and more institutions want you to apply and submit resumes via a web based portal of some sort. Search algorithms have become much more complex and available to institutions with little or no money. I can write a macro that automatically searches 100 documents for the phrase "experience in collections management" just with the software that comes with my computer. If I had a job opening that elicited 200 applications, which is not abnormal these days I understand, I'd be foolish not to use it. I assume larger institutions have much more sophisticated software packages. I can imagine that if I were to fill out an online application "they" would know within 5 minutes or less whether I met their minimum qualifications and have sorted my application accordingly before an actual human being saw a single word I wrote.
I am just supposing here and wondering what other people's thoughts and experiences are? If the trends I noticed and was told about eight years ago have continued, and it appears that they have, many of the assumptions some of us oldsters were taught are not only meaningless but dangerous. Page count would be completely meaningless if there is no one to count the pages or if your resume can even be subdivided into pages as opposed to "entries." While brevity and conciseness might be a virtue, I can imagine that too short an application package could hurt you. The larger variety of words and phrases on your resume the more likely you will have the word or phrase their computer might be searching for. You can also not get away with general, "off the rack" resumes, not that this was ever a good idea. It might be more imperative than ever that you custom tailor every resume to the opening under consideration to make sure a computer or HR person can connect you to the opening.
And while this may still be an issue for larger institutions, I can imagine that once a critical mass of employers adopts a more electronic vetting process the rest of us will have to put up with resumes that are optimized for them or expect applicants to know ahead of time how you will be screening and sorting applications, which I think is unreasonable.
Anyway, I have gone on too long. Again, I am just imagining. I have not hired anyone in almost four years, which is a decade in computer history.
Is computer vetting of applications progressing or am I making too much of nearly 10 year old advice? If your institution does use this method in whole or in part, how does this change what you look for in a resume or the advice you give?
Great discussion!
Go Gators!
Matthew White
Graduate Student
Department of History
On Dec 4, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Candace Perry wrote:
Agreed. And don’t be
bland. Don’t be weird, but don’t be bland.
Candace Perry
From: Museum discussion list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Heidi Campbell-Shoaf
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009
11:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] A question
about CVs and Resumes
I agree with Jerry
on all points. Put relevant information on your CV (believe it or not, we know
when you are padding). Length isn’t an issue if it give us a good idea of
your education and experience. One more note on cover letters. I’m noticing
more and more that applicants don’t know the purpose of a cover letter.
It is not to reiterate your resume. It is your opportunity to sell yourself,
talk about things that may not be easily put into the format of a CV,
demonstrate your communication skills, convey your excitement for the
opportunity to apply for the position at the particular institution. Just
don’t say you’re excited, tell the reviewer why in specific terms.
A cover letter isn’t just a pro forma piece of paper, people read
it and most of them want to see something that sets you apart from the masses.
Heidi
Heidi Campbell-Shoaf
Executive Director
Historical Society
of Frederick County
24 E. Church St.
Frederick
MD 21701
301.663.1188
www.hsfcinfo.org
From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of jerry symonds
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009
6:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A question about CVs
and Resumes
Based on my 30 years experience of reviewing CV's my
advice is this:
1. Being concise is important, but the
number of pages is not as important: if you need 2 - 3 pages and
it's concise, so be it.
2. I beg to differ with Dawn below on covering
letters: this is an ideal opportunity for a good candidate to link their
special qualities to the job on offer in a cogent, well written letter.
I've seen many poor ones and am impressed by the ones that are well written: it
certainly increases the chance of being selected from my stand point!
3. I don't think that 1 and 2 have changed over time:
in periods of economic prosperity sloppy CV's still don't impress!
4. If you are a student with little work experience/ or
just starting on the employment ladder I tend to give somewhat
different advice than to a mid-career professional, when completing CV's.
But that's another discussion, perhaps?
Jerry Symonds - Senior Internal Auditor
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December
03, 2009 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] A
question about CVs and Resumes
I am sure that this
will generate a lot of discussion as the subject of resumes and CVs usually
do. In addition to the several hats that I wear, I have been teaching a
resume workshop to our graduate museum studies students for the past 10
years. The question below is always one of their most frequent. My
response is that if you only have enough information to fill one page, then
keep it to one page. Most of our students, however, have had several
internships or museum positions. In the museum world it is important not
just to list the job title, museum and year (as one might in a CV) but you need
to describe what you did during the internship or in the position with two or
more relevant bullet points. Most museums want to get the most talent for
their money from the people they hire and a one-page resume rarely provides the
ability to review the myriad skills, abilities and knowledge that people have
picked up through the years. Sometimes this can be expressed in a cover letter
but I have found through vast experience that ninety percent of the cover
letters are so generic that little can be gleaned from them.
Dawn Scher Thomae
Milwaukee Public Museum
MPM/UW-Milwaukee
Museum Studies Graduate Program
From: Museum discussion list
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Meegan Carr
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009
11:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A question about CVs
and Resumes
Please respond on list, if possible. I am interested
in Marc's question too.
Thank you!
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Marc Mahan <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
From: Marc Mahan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A question about CVs and Resumes
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 11:49 AM
Some time ago there was a discussion on this list
about the length of Resumes/CVs and their content. The general wisdom at the
time was that the age of one page resumes was over.
In this era of heightened cometition and scarce
employment, have the standards changed, and if so what are they now?
Please respond either on or off the list. Thank you.
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