As a bit of historical perspective on carbon tet, it was sold as a cleaner in the 50s and 60s (maybe later?) and was commonly available in grocery and drug stores.  It was simply poured on a cloth and used.........   As a kid in the 60s, I had a bottle of carbon tet that I used to kill insects I collected - put a small piece of cloth in the bottom of a jar, wetted it with carbon tet, put the insect(s) in and put the lid on.  In a minute or two, I had a mountable specimen.  The carbon tet evaporates very quickly, so it was important to move quickly. 
 
As far as general disposal of solvents, my "local authorities" said that for small quantities (NOT 55 gallon drums), the recommended disposal procedure was to place the solvent into a pan outdoors in the sun and let it evaporate.  This of course would not work for densely settled areas, but many people have adequate controlled space that this would be possible.  Remember, solvents are made for a purpose, often as a critical component for paint, coatings, varnishes, plastics, etc.  When paints are applied, for example, the solvents evaporate into the atmosphere, usually inside or in close proximity to a building.  Many of these common solvents are just as toxic as carbon tet (does anyone want to inhale acetone or methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), or even good old straight ethyl alcohol, all of which will kill you in adequate concentration?)  So, evaporation of solvents is not illegal in most places, but each area may have different rules, so check.  It's just not the most "green" of practices.
 
Marc

 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Lisa Shockley
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Help with Fire suppression device?

David, This is terrific information to have. It didn’t seem like it would be very easy to drill out one of them.

 

In regards to emptying one of these on the ground, I would suggest to people to check if it is legal to do so in your area. Where I am, this is most definitely illegal. Since sometimes I believe that Missouri is the “anything goes state” in regards to worker/public safety issues, I suspect in someplace like California there would REALLY be lots of trouble if one were to be caught doing this.

 

We have a beautiful brass pump one that began corroding last year. I found a fire extinguisher supply company with a couple of people who are old enough to have dealt with them before. They took it and emptied it for me. They even offered to polish the brass, etc. I turned them down on that offer, but I did let them take lots of pictures.

 

I don’t know if anyone else has had this experience, but almost every time that I call the Fire Department/Hazmat to ask about something, they want to automatically burn/blow it up.

 

Lisa

 

Lisa Shockley, Collections Technician

Union Station/Kansas City Museum

30 W. Pershing Road

Kansas City, MO 64108

 

816-460-2055

 

"Where there is Peace; there is Culture;

Where there is Culture; there is Peace."

Nicholas Roerich (1874-1947)

From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Lewias
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Help with Fire suppression device?

 

Hello Reine --

Thanks for your e-mail -- and your compliments on our website....

Ah, the age-old fire grenade question.  Yes, I know the dilemma well and indeed it's come up on the Museum-L before.  It's also been a frequent question/discussion among the more than 200+ fire museums throughout North America that have Carbon Tetrachloride in fire extinguishers....  And while you flatteringly called me an "expert" I invite you to see my giant disclaimer at the bottom of this note.   :-)

First a little history and identification
The earliest grenade-type fire extinguishers were invented in the late 1800s.  They were designed to be thrown at the flames where the glass would break and the contents would spill out. Made of clear or colored glass, these early extinguishers usually have a fancy cut-glass, round or octagonal shaped body, and a tall neck and contained a HARMLESS salt water and brine solution.  "Harden" or "Hayward" were the most common brand names.

On the other hand, the smaller glass "light bulbed" shaped grenades such as the one you described, were made from 1920 to 1960s and they DO contain "Carbon Tetrachloride." These extinguishers were usually red in color (or with red liquid inside), and usually carried the brand names of either "Red Comet," or "Shure-Stop." Some hung on a wall or sat in a box and were designed to be thrown at the flames, while others incorporated a fuse and spring and worked much like a modern sprinkler head.  When exposed to high-heat (flames) a small piece of soft metal would melt, releasing a spring, breaking the glass, and dispersing the contents.  Also made during the 1920s through 1960s were numerous size and shaped models of metal (usually brass) fire extinguishers that also contained Carbon Tetrachloride as the firefighting agent.  The most common was the “Fyer-Fyter” brand and was a small handheld brass cylinder (somewhat like a large sausage stuffer) that had a piston-pump plunger handle on one end and a small nozzle on the other.

What should I do with them?
Questions about what do with these extinguishers (and their contents) have been raised a number of times.  Should an extinguisher be emptied? How dangerous are the contents? What should be done with them?  What happens if one breaks?

While carbon-tet *IS* classified as a HAZARDOUS MATERIAL, (and is banned from production), the primary danger is when the chemical reacts with heat/fire. Under intense heat, toxic fumes are formed that smother the flames and deprive the air of oxygen.  Carbon Tetrachlorideis is also listed as a carcinogin (cancer causing agent), so I'd avoid any prolonged exposure to the vapors and avoid any direct contact with your skin.  I have never heard of someone becoming ill because of a recent leak/spill, but I would use all due caution.

If the glass has remained intact all these years, it is my recommendation you leave it alone.  I have never found a way to “drill” and drain the contents. That's not to say it can't be done.  One poster on Musuem-L a few years ago (see below) claimed they had successfully drilled/drained one, but I am a bit sceptical.  Although carbon-tet IS indeed dangerous, my philosophy has always been to respect the extinguisher and its contents, treat it with a little caution, take some common sense steps taken to prevent accidental breakage or release, you'll be fine. 

Some of the "light bulbed shaped" glass extinguishers have a spring release mechanism that would automatically break the glass and releases the contents in case of fire. If you have one of these, you should secure/disable that spring release to prevent accidental breakage. When dealing with the (metal) fire extinguishers with carbon-tet, it is advisable to empty the contents by emptying the extinguisher outside (under the direction of your local fire department or hazardous materials team) in a WELL ventilated area.

YIKES - I broke it! -- NOW what?!
If a glass extinguisher with carbon-tet does accidentally break/leak, the “proper” response would be to leave the room and ventilate the area.  Your fire department can assist you with providing large fans to help with the ventilation process, but carbon-tet evaporates and disperses quite quickly (probably before they get there in typical two to three minute response time).  After the fumes subside, any residual liquid (and the glass fragments) can be wiped up using rubber gloves and paper towels or absorbent pads.

Again - in summary --- although carbon-tet IS indeed dangerous, if you respect the extinguisher and its contents, and with a little caution and common sense steps taken to prevent accidental breakage or release, you should be safe.

- David -
David Lewis, Curator
Aurora Regional Fire Museum
and the Fire Museum Network's Web Guy
[log in to unmask]


* DISCLAIMER -- I am not a chemist nor do I want to play one here on the Internet, (I nearly failed chemistry in High School). My comments are based on personal experience in dealing with a carbon-tet leak, talking with others, consulting with our local hazardous materials response team, culled from various posts to the Fire Museum Network Discussion Board, and common sense.

-------------------
Search for "FIRE EXTINGUISHERS" on Musuem-L's archive:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?S1=MUSEUM-L


>>> Subject:     Re: Fire Extinguishers - Haz-Mat?
>>> From:     Sally DeFauw < [log in to unmask] >
>>> Date:     Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:32:01 -0500

>>> Anne,
>>> We had a chemist friend drill a small hole in our glass grenade.
       This was done safely.

>>> Sally DeFauw, Curator
>>> West Chicago City Museum
>>> 132 Main Street
>>> West Chicago, IL 60185
>>> (630) 231-3376

-------------------

>  From:     [log in to unmask]
>  Sent:     Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:59 PM
>  Subject:     [MUSEUM-L] Fire Extinguishers - Haz-Mat?


>  I am hoping somebody among you knowledgeable ones will have
    had some experience with this. We recently found out that our
    glass "grenade" type fire extinguishers contain carbon tetrachloride,
    which is fairly toxic and, in high concentrations, can be fatal. We
    also have a couple of metal fire extinguishers which may contain the
    same stuff. Does anybody know whether these things can be emptied
    without being destroyed, and if so, how it can be done safely?

    Many thanks,
    Anne





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If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).