This very old ID argument (at least since William Paley (1802) and the so-called "watchmaker proof of God", and perhaps earlier) doesn't seem to change. It still seems to be mixing things together with the same terms (with different meanings). Mix in a little of Berkeley's idealism (we truly exist only in the mind of God), and some of Kant's view of phenomena (we experience only that part of existence our senses permit us to detect), and anything at all can be pointed to as a 'proof' of God. I personally don't have any problem mixing the apple of my faith with the orange of reason, but then people tell me most such salads seem to have a few nuts mixed in. Stephen "Pass the Mayo, and d__n the teleology!" aka Salad Boy PS: the Berkeley/Kant things may be somewhat simplified. Stephen Van Buren, C.A. UNIVERSITY Archivist and Special Collections Librarian BL241/Box 2115 North Campus Drive Brookings, SD 57007 605-688-4906 -----Original Message----- From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of martin weiss Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 10:49 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Einstein Would Just Be Shaking His Head >Hi Nina, > >I was thinking as much. The article was "Christian Right Lobbies To >Overturn Second Law Of Thermodynamics" (6 September 2000). For the article see http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/thermodynamics.htm Martin > >[Sadly, to access The Onion's archive, one must join and pay a fee.] > >Best wishes, sincerely, >Jay > > > >Jay Heuman >Curator of Education >Salt Lake Art Center >20 South West Temple >Salt Lake City, UT 84101 > >tel: 801-328-4201 | fax: 801-322-4323 >web: www.slartcenter.org > > > > > >On 6/3/05 6:32 AM, "Nina Stoyan-Rosenzweig" <[log in to unmask]> >wrote: >> I haven't tracked the similar article down in the Onion archives yet but >> when I saw that Watley Review article it reminded me of one that came >> out in the Onion about four years ago- where some group in the Midwest >> wanted to repeal the laws of thermodynamics. This was before we knew >> the Onion was satirical and we took it seriously getting quite upset for >> a brief time! >> Nina S-R > >========================================================= >Important Subscriber Information: > >The Museum-L FAQ file is located at >http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed >information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail >message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message >should read "help" (without the quotes). > >If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail >message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message >should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). -- Martin Weiss, Ph.D Vice President, Science New York Hall of Science 47-01 111 th Street Corona, New York 11368 718 699 0005 x 356 ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).