Indigo, I appreciate that point very much. When I do engage in these discussion either with "fundamentalists" (that seems to be the appropriate label for this group) or with those "infidel" scientists the discussion is so one-sided that it is laughable.
 
I just read an article on a website run by Chuck Colson (written by Mr. Moore) that declared that thesists should stop playing by the rules and terms and lingo of the scientific (read naturalistic) establishment. "We need to create our own lingo" (not a direct quote) is what we should do. I agree that other points of view that infer intelligence (alien or divine) in the natural world most be able to present a convincing counter-paradigm (non-naturalistic) before they will be given legitimacy and that is exactly where these movements are going. Unfortunately in the arena where it most counts, peer-reviewed journals, one is not allowed to publish, because one includes non-naturalistic causes as a part of the discussion. Meaningful dialogue is not allowed because the very terms, rules, standards, and definitions are not the property of all, but the property of one camp. So people like Mr. Moore will throw up their hands and say discussion is useless get out the cannons. Without legitimate discussion over the rules we all have to play by, and these rules are being derived from naturalism, then the culture wars continue. And as Phillip Johnson wrote in, Reason in the Balance, "culture wars" is one step short of "shooting wars." Alarmist? Just look to Germany for examples of this.
 
The real issue here again is not a battle of evidence or science versus religion. No, the heart and soul of this culture war, this intellectual clash, is one between two giant worldviews. Often the battle is termed theism vs. naturalism, Christianity vs. Secularism or Humanism.
 
I ask does science prove naturalism or is it assumed? I believe if one looks at discussion before the evolutionary synthesis of the 1950's one would find that naturalistic science was still out to prove itself. By the time of Darwins centennial in 1959, though the paradigm had been so successful in offering explanatory solutions that it became a latent assumption of the scientific community, and thus taken for-granted. Today, therefore, scientific naturalism is assumed not proved. "Science" must start and end with a naturalistic explanation, if not forget grant dollars and publishing in mainstream journals.
 
Some of us (this includes all "fringe" groups) ask for intellectual honesty. We outsiders believe that naturalism is reaching a paradigm crisis. Kuhn stated that a paradigm's life span nears its end as its explanatory power fails to answer the large unsolved questions. The big questions like the rise of information, we feel are not adequately explained, and simply stating that science (read naturalism) will eventually find the answer (It has been so successful in the past, right?) is an evasion to at least allowing other explanations to be proffered.
The stakes are high, and they are personal in a lot of ways. But retreating into "science" and "religion" only continues to polarize academic discussion and public policy. "Science" will continue to ignore and religion will continue its "end round" to borrow a phrase from Eugenie Scott. The risk is to be proved wrong, but it is a risk that I as well as everyone else must be willing to make. That takes courage, and I am still wondering if I have it.
 
Thanks again for everyones contributions. I hope dialogue of this type can continue not only here but in every institution between professional and visitor. It too requires of us professionals, as one AAM publication puts it the relinquishing of "our traditional authoritarian roles in favor of new responsibilities as both resources and facilities of dialogue about those things that matter most to people."
 
Sincerely, Josh

Indigo Nights <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Tim, let's be clear about this list's purpose. I got
the info by clicking on the link list owner John
Chadwick has had pated onto the bottom of every note:

2. PURPOSE.
Museum-L is a general purpose, cross-disciplinary
electronic discussion list for museum professionals,
students, and all others interested in museum related
issues. All museum related topics are acceptable for
posting and discussion at this time. Membership in
Museum-L is open to anyone with e-mail service.


So, please, folks, don't always presume it's just for
museum professionals, that everyone reads list mail
only at work, or that if you don't like a topic that
obviously piqued so much discussion, everybody else
ought to shut up.

There are times this list is Capital Y, Yawn, Capital
B, Boring, for me. That's when I put my delete key to
good use. From my perspective, this has been one of
the most intriguing topics in quite a while.

The beauty of this list is that, in most instances,
there is something for everyone. Sometimes, when
folks try to squelch honest discussion/debate, it
feels like a one-side love affair. Once one partner
has gotten his/hers, the party's over.

Filter, delete, or do whatcha gotta do. As long as
people aren't pinning tails on each other or talking
about their mommas (exception in a
creationist/evolutionary kind of way), it ought to be
fair to follow a thread to its conclusion.

If you got yours already, go smoke a cigarette, LOL.


--- Tim Bottoms <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was out to an all day meeting yesterday and came
> back to the religion vs.
> evolution, conservatives vs. liberals, haters vs.
> lovers, etc., etc., etc.
> thread. Don't know if anyone noticed, but there are
> at least 52 postings
> relating to this topic. All I've got to say to
> those participating in this
> thread is, I wish I had y'all's jobs because you've
> got way too much free
> time on your hands! Considering the real purpose of
> this list, which is, I
> think, museum professionals helping each other, why
> are we wasting time on
> something that'll always be divisive from now to the
> end of the
> universe/rapture? Come on folks, I know there are
> strong opinions out
> there but if someone starts a thread like this and
> you disagree, then
> disagree with them off list!!!!!!!! Well, I know
> I'll catch pure-T hell
> for my opinion, but there it is.
>
> Tim
>
> PS: for those that disagree with me, don't bother
> e-mailing because I'm
> through with this topic!
>
>
>
> Timothy S. Bottoms · Registrar · Cape Fear Museum ·
> 814 Market Street ·
> Wilmington, NC 28401 · 910.341.4350 x 3011 ·
> 910.341.4037 (fax) ·
> [log in to unmask]
> NOTICE: E-mail correspondence to and from this
> address may be subject to
> the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be
> disclosed to third parties
> by an authorized county official.
>
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=====
Indigo Nights
[log in to unmask]

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Josh Steffen
Longwood Graduate Program
126 Townsend Hall
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716-2106
Tel: 302.831.2517
Fax: 302.831.3651

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