Mr. Nowlin, Thank you for presenting these points. They are strong ones, and often used. Here is what people will often counter with. 1. The definition of Science: "Creationists" (IDer's by the way would not call themselves Creationists and vice-a-versa.) feel that the very "rules of engagement," terms, and definitions are automatically framed in favor of evolutionary biology. They would counter, and rather convincingly, that both camps are starting from pre-ordained beliefs. Each decides a priori that either God(s) exist or they do not. Either one is theistic or naturalistic in their starting point, their filtering of the evidence. They would argue that any explanation that assumes a super-natural basis is not "scientific" because it views reality differently. Unfortunately, this part of the debate rarely comes to light in main-stream discussion because it would be a royal mess to do so. It is unsettling. 2. The sphere of presentation: Since ID or creationism is "religion" (that which only certain people can know), it should be constrained to religious settings, right? As long as that remains the case, then there is no real dialouge. One group continues to yap in their pews and the other continues to shred the other in the press. As long as naturalism is the only philosophical basis for obtaining knowledge (that which everyone can know) then it reigns as the indisputable king of public discourse. If metaphysical discussions are important to the private well being of community life, then I would think that they are just as pertinent to public ones. The key is to get both in the same arena a rare event I assure you. Strawmen abound and everyone is left wondering where the real Wizard of Oz might be. Thanks for responding. -jss Stephen Nowlin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: On 1/31/05 11:18 AM, Joshua Steffen's electrons arrived as: > If they are unscientific, present the concept along side those which are > deemed scientific. Show how these ideas are should not be accepted. As long as > each side tries to use one-sided debates and does not openly discuss > definitions and concepts they we are all locked into our little box. That's fine - nobody's saying both versions cannot be presented. Personally, I think they should be. However, only one version is science -- so present the other in churches or in schools' religion classes. The problem is that the conclusions of science -- innocent of any agenda, I might add -- have led in a direction that does not correspond with the pre-ordained beliefs of the religious community. So that community has invented a low-res sciency religious theory and now wants a free ride to credibility and equivalence with the high-res evidence for evolution. It's not going to happen -- not because of political right/left bias or agendas, but because the ID science does not have enough merit. _____________________________________ S t e p h e n N o w l i n http://stephennowlin.v3.net _____________________________________ ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). Josh Steffen Longwood Graduate Program 126 Townsend Hall University of Delaware Newark, DE 19716-2106 Tel: 302.831.2517 Fax: 302.831.3651 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).