All subjects that museum folk wish to discuss are proper subjects for the museum list. Museum professionals cannot live on Past Perfect and etherfoam alone. -----Original Message----- From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of McManus,Greg Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 9:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: marines in iraq Pardon my tone but I just checked and, lo and behold, this is still the Museums Discussion List. I am sure there must be another list where you can discuss this stuff, isn't there? The Philosophy of War Discussion Group might be a good start. greg -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas Burlakoff [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2003 12:42 p.m. To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: marines in iraq It is obvious that neither responder to the original posting ever served in an active military situation. The reality is obviously so strange and foreign. War is the state of lawlessness and end of civil society; every side perpetrates atrocities. No one would give an order to use a civilian for target practice. It just happens, as a young person is transported by fatigue, heat, diesel smell, overwhelming stench of his comrades, and doses of adrenalin to a hazy reality. In this reality the vague shape of a civilian on the horizon is not a person but just a nice opportunity to set your sights, get the range of your weapons, or lash out to still that fear that has been haunting you since you saw your buddy shot. The casual killing of civilians in a war situation is not news. Conversely, in this reality you will also find instances of incredible kindness. That is the problem. When you unleash the dogs of war you unleash all the forces that are found within people. Above all, you unleash nearly random but ever-present death. My post, however, was not to dwell on the target practice using civilians. I thought that the excerpt showed the complete unawareness about the loss of Iraqi cultural heritage or the significance of that. To me it illustrates that the command obviously did not train the troops to consider this aspect of their duties. The marine quoted, in fact, showed a matter of fact sympathy, by countering with examples of worse occurrences. To me, the exposition sounded very real and in accord with my own military experiences. We shot civilians for target practice in Vietnam, we regularly killed our own officers (recent studies claim that 25% of US officers killed in Vietnam were by their own troops), we raped villagers and city dwellers. Forty years later we are doing the same things to a different people, and then try to pretend that the killing is being done by God-fearing boy scouts according to some book on fair play. Give me a break. No adult has the right to be that naïve. The statement of “but they were only following orders” is not only materially incorrect in some instances, but even when correct found to be a non-defense at Nuremberg. The upcoming war crime trials of Iraqis will have plenty of instances of “we were following orders”, and they will still be found guilty despite that claim. Last point. I am shocked by the vehemence of the attacks on the reporting “human shield.” These people put their own lives at risk to protect someone else’s hospitals, houses of worship, and important civilian installations. Few of these folks are politically motivated most become “human shields” out of religious and conscientious reasons. These are probably the most honest and giving folks in our society. nburlakoff PS The armed force in Iraq are not comprised of teenagers. The average age, I believe, is 24. -----Original Message----- From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Nash, Susan S Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:29 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: marines in iraq I totally agree with Tom Berry!! the "human shields" unwittingly made themselves into the most absurd kind of "idiota util" -- shallow propagandistic tools... i think it's pretty pathetic to see the media saying irresponsible, inflammatory things simply to peddle sensation & boost ratings. "Target practice"????? good grief. who would give an order FOR THAT??? I'm not in the military, but I don't think that it works that way. From what I've heard, there were unfortunate (and well-documented) incidents of ambushes & sneak attacks -- and communication errors resulting in deaths. That is a far cry from the "target practice" claim. If "human shields" are going to make inflammatory remarks about people, I think they should start with the politicians and dictators -- NOT with teenaged marines who are simply following orders. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Berry [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:58 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: <snip> He had seen marines using civilians for target practice on the drive up from the coast. <snip> Oh, come on! What does this have to do with the subject at hand? And being that this is from a "human shield," her claim of our Marines "using civilians for target practice" is automatically suspect. These people, from what I've seen, typically make outrageous slanders against our military under any ciurcimstances. What reliable evidence does she offer ? Do any credible, objective witnesses collaborate this, or do we take the word of an anonymous, unnamed source that cannot be verified, simply because such a statement supports one's prejudice against our military?. According to her, our Marines handed out candy bars to kids. Saddam and his goons tortured them. OK, off the soapbox. Thomas Berry HCEA Bowling Greenm OH [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Burlakoff <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 10:20 PM I thought this may be of interest given our discussion of the looting of the Baghdad Museum. Excerpted from Memoirs of a Human Shield in Baghdad Bulletin. "When the Marines came quietly in at last we marvelled at the svelte olive green Abrams tanks and amphibious vehicles driven by soldiers in matching colors and helmets. The helmets were adorned with radar mirrors, radio devices, screws for cameras, and the vests were sewn with slots for all kinds of pencils, pens, felt tips, notepads, knives - enough to make the average photographer or vested newsman look a little bit out-classed. The trucks were equipped with mesh laundry bags which held their clothing, and their food was MREs, with airtight perfectly preserved crackers, peanuts, peanut butter, chocolate, and Sarah Lee parker cake "canned" in the finest sealed aluminum foil. The Chinese food-style vegetarian dinner carried its own heating compartment which could be set hot enough to burn the food if the opening wasn't made at the right moment. One day after the hotel ran out of food I set out early in the morning to find a money exchange on Sadun Street outside the guard stations surrounding the hotels. A young soldier at the guard post asked me where I was going, and that night when I returned asked me if I had found any food. I said no, that I had been to approximately 20 money exchanges and all were closed. I mentioned to him that the Iraqis seemed like very nice people to me. He agreed. After I had walked about fifty yards he came running with an MRE dinner for me. I had seen one tank driver passing out chocolate bars to children. I felt like a child, but I took the dinner. I asked the soldier if he knew any marines who were on detail at the museum when it was vandalized and robbed. He said no. Later on he said he wasn't surprised that the vandalism wasn't prevented. He said his division was rotten from head to toe. He had seen marines using civilians for target practice on the drive up from the coast. I gave him one of the postcards I had picked up on the lawn of the museum. It was of the Lion! of Nimrod, carved about 5,000 years ago when the Sumerians were inventing the first written language. It was a picture of a lion killing a man, and the original was stolen from the museum the week before. " Published date: 10/6/2003 Author: Guest essay by LaRita Smith www.baghdadbulletin.com <http://www.baghdadbulletin.com/> n.burlakoff ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes). ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . 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