Thanks, Gene, for your comments. You get what I'm trying to say. While not always an absolute deterrent to denial, materials help. Jay wrote: The question(s) which has caused so much debate in this forum is: Should the protection of these institutions have taken priority over securing the city of Baghdad? Should troops have been stationed at museums, libraries, archives, and other cultural institutions - potentially in harm's way - so as to protect them, before the city was secured? To Jay, these questions that you feel I was not addressing (which are not, BTW, expressed in an objective or comprehensive manner), I addressed in a more general, non-location/event specific manner, as I view these current events and issues to be timeless and to have implications on a broader scale, as certainly this won't be our last war. I appreciate what Derek Monz wrote about the 1920's and 30's British fighting and protecting as much as they could. Contributing comments to various letters about the importance of our museums from others on the list is not off thread as I feel these issues have impact on us all during these hard times. These discussions have been very thought-provoking and have affected me to think more deeply about the museum profession and the relevance of such, as well as the role of our government in protecting institutions such as ours. To Deb: I do understand the point your prof was making, but I simply feel that museums have a higher role in modern society than entertainment and "showing off" stuff -- e.g. our own institution shows collections to educate, to inform, to create a sense of wonder. By the way, how do you know about these various cultures of which you speak, whose oral traditions and art have survived for thousands of years? How do you know of ones that no longer exist, whether they existed at all? How do we even KNOW about Athens' arts, culture, beauty, or Sparta? Evidence? Are you certain that they really existed? How? What about entire societies that disappeared before the advent of paper and writing? Even before "sudden" advent of museums, (though I'd venture to call the Library of Alexandria one), cultures showed, shared, and exchanged objects, art, music and kept them for many generations. Different than the museum definition but how different theoretically than what many of us do? Venturing into the murky territory of "what is a museum", I ask, considering the abundant beauty of Amish work in our area . . . why address formal vs. folk art? This "what is art" Q will never in 1000 lifetimes be resolved. I think of a town such as Lanesboro with a thriving Amish community and strong presence. . . there are numerous shops of their work and tours and so on. They are sharing their ways of life with the non-Amish, and their traditions live on. What about museums being more than rooms and cases of collections? Living museums, museums/exhibits without walls? I will say having or not having a museum in the ways that most are defining it in this list, is irrelevant to the consideration that the items that any culture makes, with great care and artisanship, protecting these items in their homes, etc., passing the items and skills down through the generations, making some available to the general public so that they continue to live as they do, is, to me, in essence the same as having a "museum without walls" -- the objects are no less important to their own culture, and that is what it's all about. Sometimes I think the word "museum" too connotative of history and dead things, but the subject/definition could arguably become much broader and inclusive of people's lives and their work and play today. Even, I dare say, Gene's ugly ties collection! Not to mention his shirts which I see (and sometimes even hear on a sonic level) nearly every day. I don't dare go there ;) I refuse to speak for various societies in regard to how they really feel about having museums, as I do not know, unless I hear/read about it in various forms of media from them. But again, I'll repeat (sorry, guys!) that the one import of museums is for various societies to learn about each other, as well as more about their own culture if they wish, to inform our present and future, via the past. I believe that we can do well to learn more about various cultures of the world, as we are not all as aware or well-educated as some about history, geography, politics, cultures, etc., and that museums can serve to help broaden our knowledge. This knowledge can help us to make wiser decisions in policy and budget distribution, including health care, education and the arts, in the world, to be better prepared for events such as the Iraqi looting. To be clear, the lives of which I speak that would consider life without museums and the arts to be bleak and less-informed is my own and countless friends and aquaintances of various cultures and occupations around the world. Unfortunately, some if not all the societies of which you speak that survive and thrive without museums, oft seem to be culturally, spiritually, artistically, and/or educationally richer in some ways than our own. I think so because of words spoken and written by them, films made by and of them, such as the 3 wonderful Iranian and Iraqi films I saw this week. . . Oft in these societies the arts/crafts/familial loyalty/oral and musical traditions in general are better supported and thus survive longer -- what about our own? How many of us do have these things in our lives? A majority? For some of us more culturally bereft folks (note: I speak only for myself here, the people I've heard and read specifically) who do wish to learn more about ourselves and others, museums and the arts in general are important to fight to preserve to help us go on living an emotionally fulfilled life. Museums can be important to share/preserve/inform to those of us who do not have deep knowledge/connection to our several thousand years existence, who no longer have an oral tradition that goes back generations, who don't have personal access to objects of our culture older than 200 years. People who live their whole lives in the U.S. and never set foot in a museum I cannot speak for, because I don't know anyone (generally schools have field trips at some point). Do you know people who haven't ever? Numerous times during my life, I've seen various societies including the Amish visiting museums, so I would not assume that just because they may not have them, doesn't mean none of them value museums at some point. Countless societies of the world have been building their own museums or otherwise sharing their work, so there must be some relevance. I do apologize for the length of this, and will sign off. Cindy ========================================================= Important Subscriber Information: The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes). If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).