While individual reality is highly subjective, not every reality is individual. For example, if one does not file the tax forms before midnight tonight there will be consequences. This is a social reality, with only relatively limited individual interpretation allowed. Culture also constrains the degree of subjectivity. On the average, in most cases women's hair tends to be longer than men's. This is a cultural reality with greater flexibility in some cultures and virtually none in others. Old Icelanders, for example, did not allow men to wear low-cut shirts. The penalty was outlawry. Another cultural reality not subject to individual interpretation. The interesting aspect of the recent discussion we have had is precisely the degree of differences that were shared, and the possible expansion of one's own vision that this could assist. You are right the "I'm right/you're wrong" approach is not useful. On the other hand, I never got the impression that this was the message. I read much pain, discomfort, confusion and attempts to understand by every contributor (perhaps that is truly subjective). In my own writing I attempted to state my thesis and support it in a concise as I could with knowledge, experience and research. Did I change any minds? I would be surprised. But that was not my goal, my concern was to state my beliefs clearly and coherently and thereby give someone else an opportunity to understand a position that they may not share. If someone can say, I don't agree, but I understand what you are saying-that is good enough. Was I swayed by opposing argument of others? No, but I hope that I saw the genuine statement of their concerns and grew to respect the work that they put into formulating these concerns. The reality of innocent lives lost is not subjective, the reality of artifacts lost is not subjective, the reality of manuscripts burned is not subjective-they are not among us anymore and nothing can change that. Our individual response to these realities may be quite subjective, but within the affected cultures, in my opinion, the responses are rather predictable. I only hope that it was all worth it to the instigators of these realities and to those who chose to follow such a lead. -----Original Message----- From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Indigo Nights Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 2:49 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article] For me the interesting thing that comes of this is the differences in realities. Paradigms are fixed and appear unable to be shifted. Confirms what I have long suspected: Reality is purely a subjective thing. You can tell who bought into the boogie monster under the bed thing and who has concerns that the reasons for this war aren't as they say. In any event, "I'm right/your wrong" isn't going to solve this. I understand from other discussions that some of the loot (as yet undetailed to me) is being brought back to various places from which it was taken. The word is that a Muslim cleric(s) indicated a woman could not sleep with a husband who had looted. Love can make for many wonderous things, even the return of stolen property. http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/live/body.asp?ID=iraq\news\booty A few of the more recent articles: http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en22556&F_catID=&f_type=sourc e http://www.fremontneb.com/articles/2003/04/15/news/news92.txt --- Chris Kolakowski <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > This interesting back-and-forth brings to mind this > unfortunately very > true quote from William T. Sherman - "War is cruelty > and you cannot > refine it." > > CLK > ===== Indigo Nights [log in to unmask] Looking for a Job? Try Got Links?, Your One-Stop Portal http://victorian.fortunecity.com/stanmer/414 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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