I appreciate the clarification.  It certainly helps.

However, not to beat this thing into the ground, if
money was rightfully exchanged at a point in time that
was deemed to be lawful, it seems to me that there
should be an exchange of cash (consideration) in
exchange for the merchandise.  It behooves the
institution now holding the
document/instrument/artifact to be fair to the country
the materials are being returned to and set a price
tht is nowhere near a gouge.  Repatriation is a
wonderful concept.  But what's to keep the country who
wants the materials repatriated from then turning
around and reselling the materials demanded, again
garnering more profits with no recompense to the first
institution that purchased?

This could prove quite the problem.  Every American
institution that holds treasures that emanated
elsewhere could certainly be considered at risk. 
Scrupulous nations would never consider the boomerang
sale of merchandise.  But there are many unscrupulous
nations in foreign lands where the political regimes
are less than above-board and savory.  No names, no
direct insinuations, but I'm thinking of the kind of
nations that take relief supplies and sell them or
keep them from those targeted for relief.

If one nation demands the return of its cultural
artifacts, what is to stop every other nation from
making like demands?  I presume from what has been
offered that this is has been negotiated through ICOM
in large fashion, but it's not clear to me.

Further, while the USA is its own "sovereign nation,"
its citizens have direct ancestral ties to countless
other lands.  In my own DNA, there exist the genes of
Poles, English, Irish, Scotch, Welsh, Canada, Canadian
Indian, German, and Italian (and I suspect there are a
couple of others in the mix).  While I consider myself
an American, I feel ancestral pride in these other
countries, just as my aunt with Dutch parents does of
Holland, my half Korean nephew of Korea, my partially
Philipino niece of the Philipines, my part
African-American and Creek Indian children do of
Africa and Native American Ancestry. 

Do the artifacts belong to the country or its people
and, if the latter, only its citizens or all of its
descendants?  Do the ancestors of "Jacob Brown" (made
up name) who reside in England only have the right to
such artifacts, or are they the legacy of all of Jacob
Brown's diaspora?

I don't know.  The Getty bears watching for its
impacts to that which is a world acclaimed institution
but also to institutions in general around the world. 
For things that transpired before 1930, who owns them,
and who pays?

I can't and won't try the case, but these are my
ramblings for something that questions my sense of
right and wrong.


--- "Isabella A.G. Ivory" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Indigo Nights: True, Dr. C., but that would be like
> saying that Grandma sold off her diamonds when times
> were tough, her grandkids developed a much better
> life, and now were demanding them back with no
> compensation to the person who bought them.  That
> would be unjust enrichment.
> 
>  
> 
> That example could only be said to be slightly true
> to the situation if you considered: Granddad died
> and left in his Will his diamonds to his sons and
> daughters, but Grandma went and pawned them to a
> broker. The children want the diamonds back that
> rightly belong to them. 
> 
>  
> 
> However, it is hardly a just comparance since
> cultural property is Not the same as just any
> property. 
> (For a definition of what constitutes 'cultural
> property' check for example Article 1 of the UNESCO
> Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and
> Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer
> of Ownership of Cultural Property, 1970, which is
> the most widely accepted treaty for cultural
> heritage.) 
> 
> No one has the right to sell the cultural heritage
> of a nation. And although the legality of transfer
> of ownership is important to consider, possession
> does not necessarily imply rightful ownership. And
> rightful ownership does not obviously lead to
> possession. 
> 
> What if George Washington's body turned up in Egypt?
> Can you imagine them not giving him back?
> 
>  
> 
> Lastly I think, the whole world has a right to
> cultural heritage, and I think we should now be
> stepping in to the age of partnership rather than
> ownership of property by museums. Museums of the
> world have a common goal in sharing the knowledge
> with the world audience. 
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Reflections on title and provenance:
> The ICOM (International Council of Museums) Code of
> Ethics, Article 2.2 states:
> 
> 2.2 Valid Title 
> No object or specimen should be acquired by
> purchase, gift, loan, bequest, or exchange unless
> the acquiring museum is satisfied that a valid title
> is held. Evidence of lawful ownership in a country
> is not necessarily valid title.
> 
> Thus a distinction is made between the legal status
> of an object and ethics. 
> 
> 
> 
> The ICOM Code of Ethics further states:
> 
> 2.3 Provenance and Due Diligence 
> Every effort must be made before acquisition to
> ensure that any object or specimen offered for
> purchase, gift, loan, bequest, or exchange has not
> been illegally obtained in or exported from, its
> country of origin or any intermediate country in
> which it might have been owned legally (including
> the museum's own country). Due diligence in this
> regard should establish the full history of the item
> from discovery or production.
> Thus, the history of the object is recognized as a
> source for making ethical judgements on
> acquisitions. It is the history of the object that
> is counted, and not just the last valid title. The
> history of an object can define the validity of the
> physical context of the object.
> 
>

Indigo Nights
[log in to unmask]

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