Just clarification...the separation of church and state as practiced today
is NOT mandated by our constitution. Instead it has evolved, mainly through
the interpretation by our courts - for better or worse. The wording of the
first amendment is: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It is also important to understand what "born again" means before you decide
who was and wasn't. Those who are born again have simply confessed their
sins, professed their belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was
crucified for their sins, and then pledge to follow Christ's teachings
through Bible study and prayer as a life plan. (This is obviously a
seriously condensed explanation, but these are the basic requirements.)

As such, ALL Christians (Catholic, Episcopal, Methodists, Presbyterian,
Baptist, Quaker and the zillion other brands) are "born again". I'm sure
you're talking about dramatic public displays, but that's not necessarily
the case. And don't forget that Roger Williams (founder of Rhode Island) was
an Anabaptist leader, which is DEFINITELY a "born again" group.

The statement below that "we are slowly edging towards becoming the
Christian equivalent of the fundamentalist Muslim state" is really
irresponsible - and I (and I'm sure many others) on this list are offended
by it. We are not going to solve the evolution/ID/creationism issue in this
forum. We are all somehow affiliated with museums, and it is up to the
museums' boards of directors to determine how the issue plays out in our
institutions. So, I suggest that future discussion of this topic be
continued off list, unless there is actually a real query for the group that
is somehow related to this topic.

Becky Fitzgerald
Executive Director
Susquehanna Museum

-----Original Message-----
From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Sasha Carrera
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 2:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A washingtonpost.com article from: [log in to unmask]

Ummm, maybe it's ok to teach ID in private schools, but separation of church
and state indicates to me that any sort of religious anything has NO place
in our public schools. The founding fathers weren't "born again," I imagine
for the most part they were middling Episcopalians or Congregationalists and
from my experience, most Episcopalians believe you can have faith while
believing in evolution. That's because people who learn science in one
setting and religion in another are capable of metaphorical thinking. Also,
studying philosophy raises many of the same questions as ID and philosophy
is considered HUMANIST not fundamentalist Christian. We are slowly edging
towards becoming the Christian equivalent of the fundamentalist Muslim
state. From ID in schools to the Patriot Act, to the censorship of people
getting funding from the NEA and NEH to lack of privacy in matters of
reproductive choice, to the conservative castration of public broadcasting,
we are inch by inch being railroaded into a "morality" that defies the
freedoms this nation was built on. And all those who don't care because
"science" is not their focus, ought to take note. It's the same thing
ideology that's cutting the funding for the arts (which I'd wager DOES
affect your museum) that's insisting that we force a particular religious
view on the entire population.

On 8/3/05 8:00 PM, "Stephen Nowlin" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>> By the way, who are "they?"
> 
> "They" are the Discovery Institute (http://www.discovery.org) as well as a
> network of fundamentalist religious denominations that support an
anti-science
> agenda and the spread of ID, and apparently, sadly, the President of the
> United States is also one of "them."
> 
>> 1. Where's the proof? If science cannot produce the proof, then they're
>> asking me to take it on faith. Hmmm...that's exactly what religion asks
too.
> 
> In religion, faith spans the yawning gap between what science/empiricism
tell
> us about the world, and what theology tells us.  In science, observation
leads
> to hypothesis, experimentation and evidence gathering, testing and
> replication, and finally, if the process has not falsified itself, to a
> scientific theory.   "Faith" in science is a calculation of probabilities
that
> something is true, based on rigorous and tested evidence.
> 
>> 2. If the authority is an evolution theory that's still standing, then
I'd
>> have to say that no one has disproved creationism/ID yet either.
> 
> In science, it is not the responsibility of someone making a claim to show
> evidence against an opposing claim, but rather it is to produce compelling
> evidence in support of their own claim.  Further, althought it sounds
> contradictory, in order for a hypothesis to move through the scientific
> process, there must be a scientific avenue by which in theory the
hypothesis
> can be shown to be false.  So, for example, ID's presumption that because
life
> is complex there must have been an intelligent designer (read God) cannot
be
> science because such a presumption is not falsifiable (i.e., cannot be
> disproven).  
> 
>> 3. If either side says, "Because I'm the "illustrious grand poobah" and I
>> said so, well then, I'd have to laugh at their arrogance.
> 
> That is essentially what ID proponents are saying, because they attempt to
> introduce their religious faith into a scientific equation.  Their
arrogance
> is part of their ignorance about science and what science can and cannot
> address.
> 
>> What is wrong with teaching both theories? Why not make a place in our
>> schools for students to be exposed to both?
> 
> Nothing wrong with teaching both (although I'd not say "both theories"
because
> that implies both are scientific theories and ID is a religious
proposition),
> as long as ID is taught as religion and evolution is taught as science.
> 
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