Perhaps we will print out and post the email thread for visitors to the museum to read!

Seriously, this has been a really interesting discussion. I'll update you all in August when the show opens with what we did... or you can come to Santa Cruz and see for yourself. 

Be well,
Nina




On Jun 1, 2012, at 10:06 AM, Jennifer Snyder wrote:

> I can't believe y'all managed to fill my inbox with a discussion on
> collecting dirt.
> 
> On 6/1/2012 12:48 PM, Randy Little wrote:
>> Why would Photo's of illegal object be any different then having the
>> illegal objects?  The curators know's its Illegal and I am thinking
>> already in jeopardy of misprision.  As is everyone on this list now
>> that we know she knows about this very illegal activity.  Being asked
>> how to avoid prosecution of the law can very easily make everyone here
>> in violation of misprision at the federal level.   A FELONY ON US as
>> well as Nina (in the US of course)
>> 
>> Randy S. Little
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Jacob Hildebrandt<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>> As someone who was starting on an art project that involved international
>>> dirt samples, I would like to thank everyone here for the advice.  I guess I
>>> will have to go a different route...
>>> 
>>> As to the actual issue at hand, as a viewer I would say photographs of the
>>> collection would be the next best thing to actually having the objects.  I
>>> usually prefer reproductions, but in this case I think something would
>>> definitely be lost.
>>> 
>>> --Jake Hildebrandt
>>> www.jakehildebrandt.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:03 PM, lucysperlin<[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Many years ago my former museum mounted an exhibit on the same topic…why
>>>> people collect. It included children’s collecting, collecting for monetary
>>>> increase, collecting for sentiment, collecting for perceived beauty, and a
>>>> bunch of other aspects of collecting.  One section (pertinent here) was
>>>> titled  “Illegal Collecting”…..it pointed out what it is illegal to collect
>>>> and offered alternatives such as photographing said items.  I wonder if you
>>>> could show part of her collection (the part that was legally collected).  It
>>>> certainly would be interesting to most people to think of soil as something
>>>> illegal to collect.  In fact, I think that it is fairly important to address
>>>> illegal collecting in such an exhibit…..
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Lucy Sperlin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Nina Simon
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:23 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you to everyone for the thoughtful comments on this. It's clear that
>>>> there are several issues to consider and I really appreciate those who have
>>>> pointed us in some clear directions on this.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> With regard to the questions about the goal of the exhibition and why we'd
>>>> want to show the dirt, here's the story:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Santa Cruz Collects is an exhibition that explores the following big idea:
>>>> the things we collect say a lot about who we are as individuals and as a
>>>> community.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We're including collectors of all kinds - one of the top collectors of
>>>> American flags, a university special collection, a woman who collects dryer
>>>> lint, a man whose entire collection was burned, etc. The story is really
>>>> focused on the WHY of collecting as well as the unique ways that people and
>>>> institutions acquire, manage, display, and dispose of their collections.
>>>> We're linking this both to pop culture (hoarding) and to the basic question
>>>> of why and how museums do the work they do.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In this context, the dirt collection is fascinating. The collector has a
>>>> great story about why she feels compelled to collect this dirt as mementos
>>>> of her work around the world, and of course, the legal issue is part of what
>>>> makes it interesting. To many visitors, the idea that dirt could be illegal
>>>> is bizarre--but allows them to grapple with deeper questions about why
>>>> certain collections should or should not be acquired or displayed. The
>>>> questions that David and others have brought up are exactly the kinds of
>>>> questions we would want to explore with visitors.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We may not show it--frankly, your responses are pushing us towards not
>>>> doing so. But I do think it tells an interesting and useful story in the
>>>> context of what we are trying to do.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for your feedback,
>>>> 
>>>> Nina
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 31, 2012, at 11:45 AM, BECKER, DAVID wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What is the goal of the exhibit? If the goal is to show differences in
>>>> dirt from around the world, then dirt can be obtained through legal and
>>>> ethical means.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If the exhibit is about collection and the collecting process, what is the
>>>> message that the museum wants to send about the collection process and how
>>>> does this particular collection fit in? It could be the basis for an
>>>> interesting discussion about the ethics of collection. Those questions could
>>>> be raised through other representations of the collection or through other
>>>> collections? Does the full collection need to be physically present in the
>>>> museum?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I personally don’t agree with calling it art as that was not the intent of
>>>> the collection or the collector, i.e. it was not done by an artist with an
>>>> intent to make art for a stated artistic purpose or message. To call it art
>>>> for convenience sake is not in keeping with the artistic discipline that
>>>> calling it art would represent.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I guess I see it as a bigger issue than has been presented in the initial
>>>> e-mail.  If this naturalist had illegally transported a cultural artifact
>>>> without permission would that be o.k. to display? If this naturalist had
>>>> transported the hide or fur of an animal that had been killed illegally,
>>>> would that be ok to display?  When I go to a nature center, there are signs
>>>> that tell me to take only pictures, and not take anything else with me:  Is
>>>> it ok for me to ignore those signs for the sake of my personal collection?
>>>> Would this same naturalist condone this same behavior if was going to be
>>>> conducted on a larger scale by 100 people, or by 1000 people, or by
>>>> everyone?  I think there are issues and considerations here that go beyond
>>>> the issue of whether it is legal or not.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dave Becker
>>>> 
>>>> Senior Manager of Learning Experiences
>>>> 
>>>> Chicago Zoological Society
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Pickering, Bob
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:51 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Whether the dirt is dangerous or not, isn’t there an issue of displaying
>>>> material that is known to be illegal? Does calling it “art” absolve the
>>>> museum of responsibility?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Robert B. Pickering, PhD
>>>> 
>>>> Director of Curatorial Affairs&  Public Programs, Gilcrease Museum;
>>>> 
>>>> Director, Museum Science and Management, University of Tulsa
>>>> 
>>>> 1400 N. Gilcrease Museum Rd
>>>> 
>>>> Tulsa, OK  74127
>>>> 
>>>> (918) 596-2706 Office
>>>> 
>>>> (918) 596-2770 Fax
>>>> 
>>>> (918) 805-4780 Cell
>>>> 
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Nina Simon
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:07 AM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This one is for the museum lawyers and collection management gurus out
>>>> there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For an upcoming temporary exhibition on collections, we would like to show
>>>> a collection of vials of dirt that a local naturalist collected on her
>>>> travels around the world. The challenge is that much of this dirt was
>>>> transferred into the US illegally (i.e. from countries where they are strict
>>>> about making sure that organic material doesn't enter or leave the country)
>>>> or was obtained with some trespassing (i.e. from celebrities' yards). She is
>>>> nervous about exhibiting the dirt in public for this reason.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> My sense is that if we can call this art, it might not be a problem.
>>>> Frankly, I don't think it's a big problem period - there's no real risk or
>>>> danger to the dirt - but I want to learn more about how to address this
>>>> issue. Do you know anyone who might have some expertise to bear in this
>>>> arena?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Nina
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Nina Simon
>>>> 
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> 
>>>> Santa Cruz Museum of Art&  History
>>>> 
>>>> 831.429.1964 x7018
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Come visit us at 705 Front Street in Santa Cruz
>>>> 
>>>> Get involved at www.santacruzmah.org or on Facebook
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5036 - Release Date: 05/31/12
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>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
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> 
> --
> Jennifer Snyder
> Assistant to the Executive Director
> Packwood House Museum
> 15 North Water Street
> Lewisburg, PA 17837
> 570-524-0323
> www.packwoodhousemuseum.com
> 
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