Eric,
Thanks again. I think your assessment is correct. Personally, I have no
problem with ID being proposed or shouted from the rooftops. I just have a
problem with it being forced down anyone's throat as science. From my
perspective it is quite easy to explain as non-scientific and politically
motivated BS. It is part of our society and must be dealt with as such. It
is the very simplicity vs. complexity dichotomy you mentioned that lures
most people in. It is just so much easier to assume that some great
all-knowing force did it than to wrap your mind around the amazingly
beautiful complexity of the real world as non-created. I prefer the
complexity, but that will surprise no one.
Sometimes it seems like it would be useful to find a better way to market
science, but I have always thought that would be like lowering science to
their level, denigrating it in the process. As a matter of fact, it is they
who are desperately trying to drag their beliefs up to the level of science
in the eyes of society. To me, that speaks all of the volumes necessary.
Certainly no hard feelings concerning a good "lively" discussion. I have
lots of good friends who are very strong ID proponents, and none of our
"discussions" on the matter or other similar topics ever generate ill
feelings. I am sure they judge me poorly because of my lack of faith, but
if by chance they are right, that will become their problem and not mine.
I am just disappointed that we still only managed to involve about 20-30
members of the list in the conversation.
Safe weekend everyone.
Mark Janzen
Registrar/Collections Manager
Edwin A. Ulrich Museum of Art
Martin H. Bush Outdoor Sculpture Collection
Wichita State University
(316)978-5850
Eric Johnson
<ejohnson@FACTSMI
TH.COM> To
Sent by: Museum [log in to unmask]
discussion list cc
<[log in to unmask]
SE.LSOFT.COM> Subject
Re: For those interested in
understanding evolution and ID . .
06/30/2005 02:55 .
PM
Please respond to
Museum discussion
list
<[log in to unmask]
SE.LSOFT.COM>
Mark,
Sounds to me like we're actually pretty much on the same wavelength as far
as the benefits of discussing all this goes--in fact, having read your
response I might even say we can instead agree to agree on almost every
point! On another board to which I post, there's an emoticon of two
smileys
clinking beer glasses--I think that would be appropriate here.
I decidedly don't think of ID (or creationism) as a scientific principle,
so
have no fear on that score. I do think they are worthy subjects of
discussion, however, because they force us to reassess our opinions, and I
was taught early on that scientists should (as anyone should) always be
willing to reassess their opinions in the face of challenges from any
direction--that notion is what I was referring to when I cited my
undergraduate science studies, where I further developed my understanding
of
higher science and its methods and principles.
I've said it before but I'll say it here, because it builds on what you
wrote: I'd rather see the response to ID be a ramping up of science
education rather than a shouting down of ID's claims, and it is my
impression that some would be satisfied with silencing them. I think it is
a disservice to public inquiry to silence those with whom one
disagrees--whether it be by asserting they have no right to be a part of
the
discussion or any other means--rather than to develop and produce the
arguments to show why you believe they are wrong.
The whole reason scientists find it hard to combat the very ignorance
relied
on by proponents of ID is because science is complexity built on complexity
and is hard to package neatly, while ID proponents don't operate under
those
constraints. So the challenge before us--and it touches directly on
museums--is to figure out how to make the science understandable, not to
cut
off or put down proponents of ID (or any other non-scientific theory).
When
there is a void in understanding, whoever speaks clearest will fill that
void. Right now ID and/or creationism speaks clearly to many people.
Science needs to speak clearer still.
Does that mean that ID or creationism or anybody else is right? Decidedly
not. But it does mean they're winning the marketing wars.
Thank you for your response, too, Mark--I'm glad we got a chance to clear
that up, and I hope no hard feelings remain! Certainly none remain on this
end.
Happy Independence Day to one and all!
Peace,
--Eric
Eric D. M. Johnson
Proprietor
The Village Factsmith Historical Research & Consulting
http://www.factsmith.com/
[log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Janzen" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] For those interested in understanding evolution and
ID . . .
> Eric,
>
> I do apologize. Today has not been good so far, and I have been allowing
> it
> to impact my reactions. I was not trying to be condescending, just very
> clear.
>
> I realize you are not trying to generate animosity, and I have none for
> you, nor for anyone who chooses to take a creationist perspective.
>
> I take the ID topic very seriously, because it is one that I do not
> believe
> many people truly grasp as a critical theme in our current educational
and
> social surroundings. If we as a group of educated professionals can not
> help our fellows on this list understand science and what it can and can
> not do, then how are we going to express those things to the public.
> Perhaps the question, which has been posed a time or two, is whether we
> should even try. I believe we should.
>
> Clearly for some science does not speak for itself, for whatever reason.
I
> do not take it as my position to find out why any one individual fails to
> understand science. I take it as my place to inform them of the facts and
> let them decide. Otherwise it is just going to turn into a "you said, he
> said, so what" argument.
>
> I do not know what you were taught as an undergraduate, but I am
> suspecting
> we are not talking about the same thing. I apologize for not
understanding
> what you were trying to say. There is no need for us to agree to
disagree.
> All that means is that one or the other of us gave up or is incapable of
> understanding, and I do not give up easily.
>
> Personally, I love exploring the notion of ID and a wide variety of other
> philosophical attacks on rationality. That is precisely why I respond to
> posts concerning it, as well as why I get so invested in the responses.
It
> is definitely worth investigating as a philosophical concept. It is
> however
> not a new concept, so it does not take very long. I will assume you are
> not
> referring to it as an intriguing scientific principle. If that is where
> you
> wish to agree to disagree, then by all means.
>
> Thanks for the discussion.
>
> Mark Janzen
> Registrar/Collections Manager
> Edwin A. Ulrich Museum of Art
> Martin H. Bush Outdoor Sculpture Collection
> Wichita State University
> (316)978-5850
>
>
>
> Eric Johnson
> <ejohnson@FACTSMI
> TH.COM> To
> Sent by: Museum [log in to unmask]
> discussion list cc
> <[log in to unmask]
> SE.LSOFT.COM> Subject
> Re: For those interested in
> understanding evolution and ID . .
> 06/30/2005 01:41 .
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> Museum discussion
> list
> <[log in to unmask]
> SE.LSOFT.COM>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark, I'm sorry that you felt the need to resort to condescension in your
> response. I'm certainly not trying to goad you; I'm just trying to
> understand where you're coming from. Additionally, I'm sorry to see that
> as
> far as you're concerned, there can be no further developments in this
> area--no possibility for error or revision. That certainly isn't the
> approach to science that I learned as an undergraduate. I find the
notion
> of intelligent design (as opposed to Intelligent Design), whether natural
> or
> supernatural, to be intriguing and worth exploring.
>
> Luckily, we can agree to disagree and probably neither of us will be
worse
> the wear for it!
>
> Take care,
>
> --Eric
>
> Eric D. M. Johnson
> Proprietor
> The Village Factsmith Historical Research & Consulting
> http://www.factsmith.com/
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Janzen" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] For those interested in understanding evolution
> and
>
> ID . . .
>
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> Please pay attention. I shall reiterate for your benefit...
>>
>> ID can not be tested scientifically. It is faith, not science. The issue
>> that is always ignored is that ID is a dead issue scientifically, as it
>> has
>> already asked its questions and been shown to be empty of scientific
>> meaning. There is nothing there to test, even if it were testable.
>>
>> That would be why on earth not.
>>
>> The fact that there are patterns in nature and that some people are
>> confused into interpreting that as design is not supportive of the
> theory,
>> which is why it was mentioned. In addition, the fascinating line of
>> inquiry
>> is why people are so easily confused by ID, not ID itself. I apologize
if
>
>> I
>> did not make that clear.
>>
>> Mark Janzen
>> Registrar/Collections Manager
>> Edwin A. Ulrich Museum of Art
>> Martin H. Bush Outdoor Sculpture Collection
>> Wichita State University
>> (316)978-5850
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Johnson
>> <ejohnson@FACTSMI
>> TH.COM>
To
>> Sent by: Museum [log in to unmask]
>> discussion list
cc
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> SE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject
>> Re: For those interested in
>> understanding evolution and ID . .
>> 06/30/2005 12:42 .
>> PM
>>
>>
>> Please respond to
>> Museum discussion
>> list
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> SE.LSOFT.COM>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Janzen" <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>> Uuummm..No. There is no room for a serious scientific study of
>> intelligent
>>> design in nature.
>>
>> Why on earth not? You say it yourself:
>>
>>> It is true that there are patterns in nature. It is true that those
>>> patterns lead some to conclude that there is intelligence at work. It
is
>>> also indeed a fascinating line of inquiry.
>>
>> So why not pursue it?
>>
>> --Eric
>>
>> Eric D. M. Johnson
>> Proprietor
>> The Village Factsmith Historical Research & Consulting
>> http://www.factsmith.com/
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
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