Matthew,

Do you suggest a way that applicants can address the issue of "wired"
job announcements without causing offense?

Rachel Smith
[log in to unmask]


On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Matthew White <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Having been on both sides of this issue I can see, oddly enough, both sides.
> As a general rule, I think it is the applicant's decision which burden's to
> bear to be interviewed or take a job whether it involves relocation, buying
> a new wardrobe, or some other task or expense not directly related to the
> job. It is also perfectly legitimate to ask that applicant during the
> interview how they plan to do it and not be satisfied with the answer.
> (assuming the topic does not fall into an area explicitly forbidden to ask
> about).
>
> One the other hand I can see why an institution might want limit potential
> applicants to people they think can realistically take the job with minimal
> burden and within a reasonable time frame. (Relocation takes a lot more time
> for a person to start)  Hiring a position is a lot of work, and no one wants
> to do it more than they have to. An institution wants to make sure they
> don't have to go through the whole thing in a month because the successful
> candidate couldn't afford the move after all or do it a year later because
> he or she didn't like the country (or the city) after all and/or got
> homesick. Advertising only locally is a fine way to maximize quality
> applicants. (Quality defined here as someone in a solid position to start
> the job quickly, and ensure some longevity) But the way position
> announcements travel the internet, I am not sure that is the best solution.
> More and more I have noticed announcements put in phrases like "preference
> shown to local applicants" or "preference shown to applicants who can start
> by X date." I think that is perfectly legitimate. After that it is up to the
> applicant to cross those bears.
>
> Regardless, I think the best is for everyone involved to be as honest as
> possible about salaries, relocation reimbursement, interview travel
> reimbursement, etc. Someone else mentioned a little white lie when saying
> you planned to relocate. Fine, I see that and there are a lot of shadings in
> any social interaction. But if that blows up later, there will be trouble
> and proof of lying during the application process is one of the few
> absolute, no questions asked fireable offenses. Play that game very
> carefully. (Say I am under the impression you were relocating to my town
> whether you got my job or not and you tell me when, because I will certainly
> ask what your plans are in that regard. If you don't start when you say you
> can start and I find out you lied about your plans and intent, there is
> going to be trouble.)
>
> And on a side note. If a hiring institution promises to reimburse for travel
> expenses for an interview, it is unprofessional and morally wrong to renege
> on that. I am still owed money by an institution that promised to reimburse
> for meals and local transportation when I flew across the country for an
> interview and I have found this is not as rare as we would hope.
>
> And while I am getting things out there, while I can agree there are many
> shadings and strategies on this topic in the hiring process, there is one
> habit which I cannot abide and I think if there is pure evil in this regard,
> this is it.  That is putting applicants through the interview process when
> you know they have no hope of ever getting the job. We all know the "wired"
> job announcements exist. These are jobs that are officially open, but the
> position is already going to a specific person and the announcement is
> merely a formality. This is done for a variety of reasons and I understand
> it is part of the game. I don't like it, but I understand it. Hate the game,
> not the player etc etc. But to put an applicant through the interview
> process, including costly investments in wardrobe, travel, time off from
> existing jobs, and other expenses when they have little if any chance of
> getting the job is just wrong and it happens all the time. I feel very
> strongly about this. I have been interviewed for no less than 6 jobs (that I
> know of) that I later found out I had no chance at because they were already
> promised to someone else.
>
> So though I agree the burden should be on the applicant, if an institution
> really only wants local applicants, whether to keep the resumes to a
> minimum, maximize retention, or to speed the hiring process, fine. But don't
> string someone along if you don't think you will hire them. It's easy to do
> because job searchers as a group are probably poorer, more desperate, and
> eager for any opportunity. But just don't.
>
> Sorry that turned in to a rant there, but this really makes me angry and the
> young professionals out there need to know what's out there.
>
> Matthew White
>
>
>
> I can appreciate what you're saying, Jamie. But honestly, I wonder if it
> isn't more of a financial hardship on these grads to not have jobs than to
> spend a few hundred bucks on an interview. I mean, I wouldn't do it for the
> first interview. But at the second interview level (first via phone), they
> have a better sense of their chances and it could be a justifiable expense.
> Especially if they live in cities that are crowded with museum studies
> graduates--there might not be 10 but rather hundreds of local applicants for
> every job. But they also wouldn't want to just move to a new place without a
> job offer in hand just to become a local--especially to cities with fewer
> opportunities or high living expenses. They're caught between a rock and a
> hard place.
> Cheers,
> Shana
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jamie Smith <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>
>> From the Museum perspective, I think a small to medium museum is not going
>> to consider an out-of-State candidate if they are located more than a
>> reasonable day trip away from the museum they apply to because the museum
>> does not have the resources to reimburse each candidate for travel and they
>> do realize that these candidates are just starting out and do not have the
>> means to fly in for an interview for an entry level job either. That is why
>> we keep our search State wide for entry level positions. Please keep in mind
>> that we typically receive at least 50 resumes for such positions, all of
>> which have basically the same level of education and experience and at least
>> 10 of these candidates are fairly local, so there is no shortage of
>> qualified local candidates. If we did advertise nationwide for such
>> positions, I would really have a hard time as a human being asking a
>> candidate to fly in knowing, at this stage in their career, it would cause
>> them financial hardship when they are competing against so many other
>> candidates with basically the same credentials. I would really concentrate
>> my search locally, try and attain an entry level position and then take it
>> from there. Certainly when you are ready to move on to a higher position,
>> the search parameters widen and you can cast your net wider as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Shana West
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:27 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: SPAM-MED: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Employment Search Frustrations for the
>> recent graduates
>>
>>
>>
>> I have found it puzzling when museums I applied to in other states weren't
>> interested because I wasn't local. I moved across the country for my first,
>> entry-level museum job. Many graduates would jump at the chance for a full
>> time job, regardless of location. So when grads have come to me asking for
>> advice on applying out of state, I've told them to say they're already
>> planning on moving to that city independently of the job (yes, it's a white
>> lie). That way, the hiring museum won't feel like they have to pay expenses.
>>
>>
>>
>> I haven't tried it myself, but I was in a situation where I was actually
>> moving to a new city and applying for a job. I don't think I would have been
>> considered had I not already been planning a move. In fact, I'm pretty sure
>> they asked me on the phone interview, "And you're definitely moving here?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Just an idea.
>>
>> Shana
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Jamie Smith <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> I have posted positions on local sites before, such as MANY (Museum
>> Association of the State of NY) and I have interviewed and hired candidates
>> from these postings. Perhaps you need to look at State museum organizations
>> rather than national organizations to post your resume on. I know from the
>> Museum perspective, we are not interested in a nationwide search to fill an
>> entry level position, so we keep the posting local, or at least at the State
>> level.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps and good luck,
>>
>> Jamie Smith Quinn
>>
>> Executive Director
>>
>> FASNY Museum of Firefighting
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Laurie A Sedicino
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:08 PM
>>
>>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Employment Search Frustrations for the recent
>> graduates
>>
>>
>>
>> I would also be interested in the answer to Matthew’s question.  I have to
>> agree that - at least for museum field jobs – I have never once experienced
>> museum search committees using posted resume sources…and I have never been
>> contacted through these sources.  I would like to hear along with Matthew if
>> you think these are good uses of such spare job search time and energy??
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Laurie
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Matthew White
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Employment Search Frustrations for the recent
>> graduates
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question for the group that is tangentially related.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are several professional organizations that invite those looking for
>> a job to post their resumes and particulars. (I have posted at both AAM and
>> AASLH. I am sure there are similar sites in other niches of the field.) I
>> have also posted on Linked-In. As anyone who has ever done this knows, it
>> can be kind of time consuming to enter and keep current.
>>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone ever gotten contact through one of these services? An
>> interview? A job?
>>
>>
>>
>> For those of you who have hired recently, did you use these services? If
>> not why not?
>>
>>
>>
>> What about Linked-In?
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I know a lot of people in the job market and even a good
>> number who hire and I have never heard of ANYONE even being contacted
>> through one of these services, let alone get a job.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone think these are good uses of spare job search time and energy?
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew White
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Ashley Watson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>    I want to thank you all for sharing your experiences and the advice.  I
>> already decided to open my search wide open to start somewhere.   I had two
>> job interviews that took the place last November but didn't get the job. I
>> received a PERSONAL email from a museum to inform me that my professional
>> package has been forwarded directly to the museum director.  So it certainly
>> passed the human resources wall. So with that, should I check with them for
>> the status progression?
>>
>>
>>
>> One more thing:
>>
>> In response to Allison Bott,  despite my name giving an implication that I
>> would be a female, I am actually a male. That is alright.  I will read the
>> article in the link you provided as it may apply to me as I am also in the
>> minority as i am Deaf.   So I face the same challenges as others who are in
>> the minorities.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ashley Watson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Jillian Shoblock <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have been applying since December 2011 when I graduated with my MA in
>> Museum Studies an have only had 2 interviews. Do I get frustrated a lot, yes
>> but I haven't given up hope yet. I do still have an active social life and
>> work in management in retail. Is that what I want? Definitely not. I intern
>> at a museum that I love and would love to be able to work at. But can't
>> afford to hire me so right now I am getting a little of what I love to do.
>> What I have found is trying to stay positive even though I have applied to
>> well over 100 positions all dealing with collections management and most
>> with history, since that is one of my undergraduate degrees, is what keeps
>> me going. Try to enjoy your life outside the museum an continue to visit
>> museums. If you can't find a job in I e and have to work elsewhere then
>> volunteer so you still get your fill. I know it sucks, trust me all my
>> friends have full time jobs and are "living the life" but I have to believe
>> that my time will come. Also my one friend keeps telling me to look at
>> higher Ed jobs like academic advising if you have a masters. Just a thought.
>> Good luck and keep your head up!
>>
>> Jillian
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "Jentzsch, Tracy" <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Ashley, for you and others searching for job leads, I would recommend a
>> > free resource we offer through the University of Delaware's Museum
>> > Studies
>> > Program.  MuseWeekly is our weekly electronic news that provides job
>> > posts, internships, conferences, calls for papers, announcements and
>> > news
>> > related to all things "museum".  We never rent or sell our list, and
>> > there
>> > is always a plethora of good leads.  You can sign up for this free
>> > resource by going to our website, www.udel.edu/museumstudies and filing
>> > in
>> > the three question form on the index page.  Good luck to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tracy H. Jentzsch
>> > Staff Assistant, Museum Studies Program
>> > University of Delaware
>> > 302.831.1251
>> > Www.udel.edu/museumstudies
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/20/13 3:49 PM, "Ashley Watson" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello,
>> >>  I graduated with masters in the museum studies at Syracuse University
>> >> last May and have not found a job yet despite aggressively applying for
>> >> various openings within my experience and skill range. I have completed
>> >> an internship at National Museum of Natural History in the exhibits
>> >> department and is currently a zooarchaeological/collections intern at
>> >> the
>> >> Museum Support Center till this May.   Any recent graduates here that
>> >> have the same frustrating experience?   Those internships certainly
>> >> help
>> >> keep me sane professionally and personally but I certainly need to
>> >> begin
>> >> LIVING. I want to add one thing that I was more than qualified for one
>> >> position at National Museum of Natural History but didn't break through
>> >> the annoying human resources "wall". My colleague who was qualified to
>> >> the maximum also applied for the same position got the same result.
>> >>
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