Dear Mr. Martinson,
Once again, in your posts you seem to have difficulty commanding facts.
While you argue passionately that America bears no responsibility for the
lack of security that allowed the looting and burning of the National Museum
and Iraqi National Archives even our Secretary of State (a former general)
Colin Powell admits America's responsibility in protecting and recovering
the looted artifacts.
All of us have a right to our opinions, but we do not have a right to create
facts ex nihil. For some reason you equate Iraqi sovereignty with possessing
various military materials. First of all, as applied to states, sovereignty
merely indicates the independence of a state. Iraq was an independent and
world-recognized state since the teens of the 20th century. Possession of
military articles by a sovereign state is normal part of its existence. I
don't see how possession of gas masks, something that even civilians have in
the United States, affects Iraq's sovereignty.
Second, the issue we have been discussing is not the virtues of Saddam. Many
have deplored the looting and destruction of cultural heritage items, and
some have decried the lack of action taken by the American military in
protecting these items. Much discussion has swirled around the latter point.
I think that Secretary Powell admission of responsibility closes that
debate.
Last, some have suggested that we, as a group, take proactive positive step
to improve the current situation. I am in support of this suggestion; I can
only hope that you will also join this suggestion.
Finally, you do little good to your point-of-view by attacking factual
statements by others with unsupported assertions and emotional rhetoric. No
one asks you to change your opinions, but there is no need to indulge in
bathos.
N.Burlakoff
-----Original Message-----
From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
Of James Schulte
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
here is John's personal message to me, I think the room needs to hear this,
thats why this is a discussion group. Please from now on keep it to the
group.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martinson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> James,
>
> I don't want to send this out to the entire group..because it is not a
> personal attack against you...just a disagreement in thinking. This is
an
> emotional issue, I realize...
>
> In your comments on Museum-L, are we talking about the same Saddam
Hussein's
> dictatorship government that gassed his own people? And now
American/British
> troops have found Saddam's Army stockpiling gas masks, found buried vans
> that can produce
> gases/chemicals (Weapons of Mass Destruction) situated near artillary
> bunkers that could fire the bombs from, and long-range missles (objectable
> to UN policy). And you call that a "sovreign" nation? A nation that does
not
> follow UN Resolution, yet America had no basis of attacking, whatsoever?
Are
> you kidding me?
>
> In fact, why wasn't Sadan's people protecting the museum and library, when
> some on this list seem to object thinking it is up to the Americans to
> protect. A nurse I just was talking to, having nothing to do with museums
at
> all, just asked me when she found out I was in the museum profession, "why
> the Iraqi museum personnel or curator's in the museum protecting their
> collection? And why didn't they remove the objects -- they had ample
warning
> that a US invasion was near." Isn't it Saddam's responsibility? But where
> are Saddam and his troops? Where was the Iraqi Police force. Don't blame
the
> Americans.
>
> Saddam not once followed UN Security Council guidelines. He has hit his
> weapons - has lied to the Counil and bodies of government, and has been in
> clear violation of Resolution 687. He also aggressively invaded Kuwait and
> defied U.N. Directives to retreat from Kuwait. Is this is a "sovreign"
> nation we are dealing with---or a dictatorship who has trampled on the
civil
> rights of its own people?
>
> Yup, James --- Saddam must be an angel. Hmmm? Why don't you nominate him
for
> a humanitarian award or the Nobel Peace award. But, wait a minute ~~~~
I've
> seen pictures of gassed Iraqi people; I have seen the mass graves of
> thousands murdered by Saddam. I have heard stories and accounts of the
> thousands jailed, and I have heard the sad accounts of Iraqi Americans who
> tell of their families tortured and murdered by Saddam's henchmen.
>
> James, I guess that those are not weapon of mass destruction (WMD)
producing
> vans the US soldiers and intelligence agencies are uncovering. Those are
not
> gas masks they are finding and other documentation that are clearly
> providing more evidence in support of the invasion. And those are not
> artillery units located next to the buried WMD vans to shoot the chemicals
> or gas once they are made? Yup, I guess they are "museum exhibits" or
there
> for show and tell examples of how to try and hide WMD from American
> invaders.
>
> Yup, Saddam is just a good guy. That is why his personal buildings have
gold
> in the bathroom because he wants to show the world how well off he is,
while
> his people suffer and have been under his domination for decades. It seems
> you are implying that Saddam is a saint and there was no reason to invade
> his country.
>
> Then why are the Iraqi people now ripping down his statues? Why are they
> looting and torching anything that has anything to do with him ~~ even
their
> cultural library and valuable museum? Why are they stomping their feet (a
> negative custom---putting their shoe over the face of Saddam to show their
> disrespect) if he was such an angel?
>
> Maybe, it is because the Iraqis are now free to be able to express their
> discontent over Saddam, without being killed or tortured. The Iraqi people
> now can see that he was no angel, but a serpent who murdered, killed and
> kept them from their human and civil rights. As a Curator, I hate to say
> this---but their freedoms are far more important to them, than cultural
> artifacts of the past. They will regret this, but in the joy of their
> freedom - things have gotten out of hand. I am sorry for that. It is war,
> and things happen that cannot be controlled.
>
> And as a Curator and in the museum field --- I would have removed the
> collection under my care to safer, and a guarded location. It is not the
> American military's fault . . . it is a war. There job are not policemen.
> Where was Saddam's police protecting the museum? Where is the United
> Nations?
>
> It is not the American/British responsibility to shot looters - that would
> open up even more hate against America. I would be more interested in
> questioning where are Saddam's soldiers protecting the city? Where is
> Saddam----he runs and leaves the Iraqi people alone. And I saw a report
of
> the museum's safe/vault opened--who opened it? Surely, not the American
> troops. (hint: could it be an inside job?)
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Schulte" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
>
>
> > Nick at no time did Sadam Hussein support Ai _Quieda in fact he came
> on
> > public television and condemn this senseless attack.George Bush and his
> > regime used this as one of many to infiltrate a sovreign nation with no
> > basis whatsoever. The small extremeists group found in Iraq that did
> support
> > Al Quieda were in fact in Kurdish territory. A terroitory we protected.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nicholas Burlakoff" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> >
> >
> > > I fully agree that people are more significant than artifacts.
Although
> > > people have been known to give their life to preserve cultural
> treasures.
> > I
> > > am also in full agreement that the 150 children released from prison
are
> > > probably glad to be out (if they survive and are not orphans-a
difficult
> > > fate in some countries). But, how about the hundreds of burned and
> maimed
> > > children who are suffering in hospitals that have no water or
> electricity
> > > and were allowed to be looted by folks who cam to "help" ? What did
> these
> > > kids do to deserve their fate-support Al Quida, produce weapons?
> > > N. Burlakoff
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Lisa Moellering
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:18 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> > >
> > > Agreed - I think Deb Fuller is the one voice of reason in this
> discussion.
> > > I too feel a loss as to these treasures - but there is something much
> more
> > > important than artifacts and books - people. Our troops have done a
> > > magnificent thing here - I would bet the 150 children released from
that
> > > prison value their freedom much more than an artifact - I think some
> > > perspective is needed here.
> > >
> > > Lisa Moellering
> > > Curator of Collections/Registrar
> > > Holocaust Museum Houston
> > > 5401 Caroline Street
> > > Houston, Texas 77004
> > > 713.942.8000 x110
> > > 713.942.7953 (fax)
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf
> > > Of michael russell
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 9:49 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> > >
> > > Thanks. About time we heard from the other side of the equation.
> > >
> > > Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > I know this isn't a political forum but that last article from CNN
> really
> > > cheesed me off and I really feel I need to say something.
> > >
> > > In summary, the US troops were blamed for not stopping the looting of
> the
> > > museum in Baghdad.
> > >
> > > To quote one of the US commanders, "We're not a police force." (Not in
> the
> > > article.) The military isn't a police force. They aren't trained to be
a
> > > police
> > > force. They're trained to stop the enemy which they have done. Looting
> is
> > > EVERYWHERE and there's just not enough tanks or troops to keep
> everything
> > > safe.
> > >
> > > These guys have been on the go for 3 weeks. They haven't had showers,
> used
> > a
> > > real flush toilet or probably gotten more than 4 hours of sleep a
night
> in
> > > those 3 weeks - not to mention spending many weeks before that on high
> > alert
> > > ready to move at a moment's notice. They've been shot at; they've seen
> > their
> > > friends shot. They're extremely on edge because they don't know if the
> > Iraqi
> > > in
> > > civilian clothes coming towards them wants to thank them or blow them
> up.
> > > Right
> > > now, the average solider probably cares more about getting a home
cooked
> > > meal,
> > > a hot shower, wearing something that isn't all shades of sandy brown
and
> > > getting a full night's sleep in a real bed than stopping someone from
> > > filtching
> > > a really old clay tablet. I can't really say that I blame him.
> > >
> > > There are still pockets of resistance in Baghdad and the troops don't
> know
> > > what
> > > traps were laid by Saddam's troops as they fled. And up until Sunday
AM,
> > > they
> > > were still looking for 7 POWs. 4 are still MIA.
> > >
> > > Tanks and troops can't be everywhere nor is it their job. I could
start
> > > asking
> > > where are the UN troops who's responsibility it is to do this, but I
> just
> > > won't
> > > go there. If the decision comes down to protecting the US troops in
> > Baghdad
> > > or
> > > protecting a museum that's one of hundreds of buildings being looted,
> > where
> > > do
> > > you think the tanks will go? My guess is that human lives are a bit
more
> > > important than artifacts.
> > >
> > > The US troops freed the city and turned it over to the Iraqi people.
> THEY
> > > are
> > > the ones doing the looting. It is THEIR fault for destroying their own
> > > artifacts. The US gets criticized for trying to revive colonialism and
> > > control
> > > Iraq. So we live up to our original assertion of turning control of
Iraq
> > > back
> > > to the Iraqi people. Now the troops are getting blamed for NOT
> controlling
> > > the
> > > people. You can't have it both ways. Don't blame the troops for what
the
> > > Iraqi
> > > people have done of their own free will. Once things die down,
hopefully
> > > cooler
> > > heads will prevail and people will start returning the artifacts and
> > > rebuilding
> > > the museum. But again, it will be up to the Iraqi people to do so, NOT
> the
> > > US
> > > or any other outside group.
> > >
> > > Sorry again for venting but that article was way out of line.
> > >
> > > Deb
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
> > > http://tax.yahoo.com
> > >
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