Idewey-
I wonder if perhaps we could keep the unsupported "facts" about the war off
this list because if you have not been in Iraq and seen the pre-war as well
as war time conditions, it might be important to not believe everything you
read!  Body counts have a way of being manipulated so I would caution you
about believing an "on-line" site with the counts (who is doing these
estimates?) and how was it determined that "the overwhelming majority of
those people have been killed by the US military and its government."

I have spoken to one of the men who served on the front lines over there and
he indicated that he saw killing happening by their own army.  Also, we
spoke about several of the historic locations that they saw and he talked
about how they positioned themselves to protect these locations, not destroy
them.  He told me about one museum that the Iraqi people had looted and
destroyed and about the curator who stayed to protect what he could all by
himself.  He also talked about the terrible conditions of the country that
we there before they arrived and the anti-tank and air-craft guns that were
placed in playgrounds and school yards. (I even saw photographs)  Iraq is
not like the US, do not apply your standards to their culture or political
activities.  Saddam Hussein was not a nice guy and he regularly shielded
himself and his government with his own people which placed them in danger.
Also, not all Iraqi want us there, but not all many this soldier interacted
with were happy to have them there.  Use caution when drawing conclusions
about what is happening in Iraqi based on news reports which have various
biases themselves.

The US military and the US now have very strict regulations about the
materials that people (military and non-military) are allowed to bring back
with them.  Unfortunately, not everyone understands the importance of
historical materials and will try to smuggle illegal items back home as
souvenirs.  If those types of materials are offered, museums should handle
them the same way we would illegally obtained materials from other places.
Please be sure however that it is a looted item and illegal, the Middle
Eastern culture does produce many fake antiquities to sell to the "tourist"
and these can be purchased, traded for by the soldiers and sometimes even
found on the ground.

I'm not giving you my political views about whether our soldiers should or
should not be there, but I do believe that the majority of our soldiers are
not killers or looters.  Remember that interpretation is just that and your
"truth" may not always coincide with other peoples "truth."  It will be
interesting to relook at this war (as well as the earlier war with Iraq) in
the future to see how our views of today's "truths" will change.

Sincerely
Tracie Evans

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ldewey [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:42 AM
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:      Re: Iraq donation
>
> Was it Samuel Johnson who said 'patriotism is the last refuge of
> scoundrels'? I forget. It's not important.
>
> In any event, I support the GIs who question and dissent from their own
> role in the occupation, and I assume many do. We have heard of a few
> who have refused to go along, there are probably many who we will not
> hear about.
>
> Still, most of the people who have been killed in Iraq are
> non-combatant Iraqi people. The current estimate is somewhere between
> 8,800 and 10,000, according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ . And the
> overwhelming majority of those people have been killed by the US
> military and it's government. That is a simple fact.
>
> Audience research shows that uninterpreted object displays are not very
> effective as self-directed communication. So if a museum intends to
> display 'war booty', it ought to include the context. Certainly that
> should include the conditions of the war; the aerial bombardments of
> urban residential areas, water supplies, and power plants (all
> proscribed as 'war crimes' by the Geneva Convention, btw), the cluster
> bombs and maimed children. Perhaps an autographed picture of government
> emissary Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein (1983), or a
> list of the US, British and German firms who supplied the chemicals
> used in the Iraq-Iran war. Perhaps an annotated map showing the
> international oil investments near Tirkut.
>
> -LD (aka person C)
>
>
>
> On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 12:04 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
> > Date:    Sun, 4 Apr 2004 11:44:49 -0700
> > From:    Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Iraq donations
> >
> > --- Indigo Nights <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> You have a history here of touting the soldiers and
> >> their beleagured families.  Your patriotism is
> >> admirable.  But this is a multinational list with
> >> folks who do not feel the same way, including some of
> >> your own countrypersons.
> >
> > I don't want to drag this out either but let me set the record
> > straight about
> > my attitude towards the whole situation. I don't consider myself
> > "patriotic"
> > but someone who genuinely cares about all people, regardless of race,
> > religion,
> > occupation or nationality. I happen to believe that the average person
> > out
> > there is trying to do the best they can with what they've got. So I do
> > get
> > defensive of people who I think are trying to do their best and are at
> > the
> > mercy of a usually one-sided media world.
> >
> > In any highly controversial political situation, I find that it's an
> > alarming
> > tendency to jump on the "little guy" like the soldiers instead of the
> > people up
> > the chain of command who are calling the shots. Blame is usually put
> > on the
> > people who have the least control of the situation but happen to be
> > right in
> > the middle of it.
> >
>
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