Dear Claudia,

Of course a great majority of Americans think about this issue exactly the
same as 'most of us' do over here, and I do understand that it is for most
people - at both sides of the ocean - very difficult to understand and
accept that a reputable museum as the Getty would even consider to buy
illicit material. Most unfortunately there are too many museums that accept
any fake provenance story just out of desire to acquire an interesting new
piece.

I really regret the very difficult situation Marion True is in now. Her life
must be hell at the moment. 

What I do not like is that comments are being given about the Italian
authorities - or authorities from any other source country - as if they are
managing some kind of banana republic. That shows exactly the same attitude
that makes illicit trade possible.

Cheers

Ton Cremers

_________________________
Museum Security Network
http://www.museum-security.org/
http://cpprot.te.verweg.com
http://msn-list.te.verweg.com
_________________________
  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museum discussion list 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Claudia J. 
> Nicholson
> Sent: 06 November 2005 20:51
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Theft or Unjust Enrichment
> 
> Note to Ton:  I think there are probably many of us that feel 
> that way here in the U.S.  Theft is theft, no matter how you 
> slice it, and I couldn't in good conscience accept something 
> for my museum that I knew had been stolen or illegally exported.
> 
> The days of museum directors referring to "their favorite 
> smuggler" are long gone, I hope.
> 
> Claudia Nicholson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museum discussion list 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MSN CPPnet 
> (Ton Cremers)
> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 1:31 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Theft or Unjust Enrichment
> 
> These are a lot of words for stating that if the acquisitions 
> were illicit objects should be returned and if they are not 
> illicit the objects should not be returned.
> I could not agree more, and am very glad to read that an 
> American Museum-L subscriber supports the return of objects 
> illicitly acquired.
> 
> Ton Cremers
> 
> _________________________
> Museum Security Network
> http://www.museum-security.org/
> http://cpprot.te.verweg.com
> http://msn-list.te.verweg.com
> 
> Sample file of Video Project
> http://www.lukanga.co.uk/lukanga-sample.wmv
> http://www.lukanga.co.uk/lenelly.wmv
> http://www.lukanga.co.uk/sample2.wmv
> _________________________
>   
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Museum discussion list
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Indigo Nights
> > Sent: 05 November 2005 17:43
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Theft or Unjust Enrichment
> > 
> > I suppose quite a few of you are familiar with the tumult 
> at the Getty 
> > and the upheavals of late.  If you've been following their 
> travails, 
> > you'll know that not only Italy, but now Greece, as well, are 
> > demanding the return of antiquities claiming they were stolen.
> > 
> > I don't have a good grip on all the details, but things I 
> have learned 
> > in the last two years are making me question whether the 
> story being 
> > told by the other nations is reality or just an example of unjust 
> > enrichment.
> > 
> > In the last two years, my guy and I visited both the Hearst 
> Castle and 
> > Ca d'zan (among the many museums we've explored).
> > In both instances, what struck me was there were precious treasures 
> > that had been moved from homes/palaces/castles/churches 
> (whatever) and 
> > placed in these American mansions.  It struck me at the 
> time that this 
> > was such a tragedy, that riches of yore had been plundered 
> by wealthy 
> > Americans who wanted to build their own castles.
> > 
> > My memory of what was conveyed at both locales is that these things 
> > were purchased in the early 20th century when Europe was 
> very poor and 
> > had a need to sell off such things to put bread and butter on the 
> > table.
> > Americans had the money, and they paid to have the things 
> relocated.  
> > There was no indication these were or were not government 
> sanctioned.  
> > I was glad for the opportunity to see them, but saddened that the 
> > almighty dollar had been responsible in some fashion for 
> encouraging 
> > the destruction of antiquities.  The liberal in me said, 
> though, that 
> > it allowed some to eat.
> > 
> > Now, fast forward to the American treasure, The Getty.
> >  I can't begin to say whether the allegations of the Italians and 
> > Greek governments (and I suppose the Egyptians won't be far 
> behind) is 
> > true or not.  It is entirely conceivable to me that there were 
> > opportunists back when, who learned that Americans would pay and 
> > pillaged for profit.  We cannot judge the transfer of 
> knowledge as to 
> > ownership by today's standards, where everything is electronic and 
> > veritably instantaneous.  Who is to say whether what transpired was 
> > legal or illegal?  Not me.
> > 
> > It just strikes me that, while I would not want to be party 
> to theft, 
> > it would would not seem fair for these two nations to be unjustly 
> > enriched by these events either.  If the transfer of items was a 
> > legitimate purchase at the time, and money crossed palms, 
> why would it 
> > be ok for the two countries to demand the return of the antiquities 
> > without giving "consideration" (read compensation) to the Getty for 
> > the exchange, based on purchase price escalated by today's value of 
> > money (i.e., $100 at one point being equivalent to $100,000 today)?
> > 
> > This has been bugging me of late.  If the Getty is truly 
> guilty, so be 
> > it, return the treasures.  But if such were not the case, 
> and this is 
> > simply a case of nationalism, no way, Jose.  I rather think that 
> > anyone who is in possession of treasures that originated 
> from foreign 
> > (or even Native American tribes) needs to take heed for the 
> precedent 
> > this stands to set that could have an impact on the many 
> institutions.
> > 
> > In some ways, this post feels like the child saying the emperor is 
> > naked.  Don't yell at me for asking; I really want to know 
> and look to 
> > you experts for answers.
> > 
> > 
> > Indigo Nights
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 
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