here is John's personal message to me, I think the room needs to hear this,
thats why this is a discussion group. Please from now on keep it to the
group.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martinson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> James,
>
> I don't want to send this out to the entire group..because it is not a
> personal attack against you...just a disagreement in thinking. This is
an
> emotional issue, I realize...
>
> In your comments on Museum-L, are we talking about the same Saddam
Hussein's
> dictatorship government that gassed his own people? And now
American/British
> troops have found Saddam's Army stockpiling gas masks, found buried vans
> that can produce
> gases/chemicals (Weapons of Mass Destruction) situated near artillary
> bunkers that could fire the bombs from, and long-range missles (objectable
> to UN policy). And you call that a "sovreign" nation? A nation that does
not
> follow UN Resolution, yet America had no basis of attacking, whatsoever?
Are
> you kidding me?
>
> In fact, why wasn't Sadan's people protecting the museum and library, when
> some on this list seem to object thinking it is up to the Americans to
> protect. A nurse I just was talking to, having nothing to do with museums
at
> all, just asked me when she found out I was in the museum profession, "why
> the Iraqi museum personnel or curator's in the museum protecting their
> collection? And why didn't they remove the objects -- they had ample
warning
> that a US invasion was near." Isn't it Saddam's responsibility? But where
> are Saddam and his troops? Where was the Iraqi Police force. Don't blame
the
> Americans.
>
> Saddam not once followed UN Security Council guidelines. He has hit his
> weapons - has lied to the Counil and bodies of government, and has been in
> clear violation of Resolution 687. He also aggressively invaded Kuwait and
> defied U.N. Directives to retreat from Kuwait. Is this is a "sovreign"
> nation we are dealing with---or a dictatorship who has trampled on the
civil
> rights of its own people?
>
> Yup, James --- Saddam must be an angel. Hmmm? Why don't you nominate him
for
> a humanitarian award or the Nobel Peace award. But, wait a minute ~~~~
I've
> seen pictures of gassed Iraqi people; I have seen the mass graves of
> thousands murdered by Saddam. I have heard stories and accounts of the
> thousands jailed, and I have heard the sad accounts of Iraqi Americans who
> tell of their families tortured and murdered by Saddam's henchmen.
>
> James, I guess that those are not weapon of mass destruction (WMD)
producing
> vans the US soldiers and intelligence agencies are uncovering. Those are
not
> gas masks they are finding and other documentation that are clearly
> providing more evidence in support of the invasion. And those are not
> artillery units located next to the buried WMD vans to shoot the chemicals
> or gas once they are made? Yup, I guess they are "museum exhibits" or
there
> for show and tell examples of how to try and hide WMD from American
> invaders.
>
> Yup, Saddam is just a good guy. That is why his personal buildings have
gold
> in the bathroom because he wants to show the world how well off he is,
while
> his people suffer and have been under his domination for decades. It seems
> you are implying that Saddam is a saint and there was no reason to invade
> his country.
>
> Then why are the Iraqi people now ripping down his statues? Why are they
> looting and torching anything that has anything to do with him ~~ even
their
> cultural library and valuable museum? Why are they stomping their feet (a
> negative custom---putting their shoe over the face of Saddam to show their
> disrespect) if he was such an angel?
>
> Maybe, it is because the Iraqis are now free to be able to express their
> discontent over Saddam, without being killed or tortured. The Iraqi people
> now can see that he was no angel, but a serpent who murdered, killed and
> kept them from their human and civil rights. As a Curator, I hate to say
> this---but their freedoms are far more important to them, than cultural
> artifacts of the past. They will regret this, but in the joy of their
> freedom - things have gotten out of hand. I am sorry for that. It is war,
> and things happen that cannot be controlled.
>
> And as a Curator and in the museum field --- I would have removed the
> collection under my care to safer, and a guarded location. It is not the
> American military's fault . . . it is a war. There job are not policemen.
> Where was Saddam's police protecting the museum? Where is the United
> Nations?
>
> It is not the American/British responsibility to shot looters - that would
> open up even more hate against America. I would be more interested in
> questioning where are Saddam's soldiers protecting the city? Where is
> Saddam----he runs and leaves the Iraqi people alone. And I saw a report
of
> the museum's safe/vault opened--who opened it? Surely, not the American
> troops. (hint: could it be an inside job?)
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Schulte" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
>
>
> > Nick at no time did Sadam Hussein support Ai _Quieda in fact he came
> on
> > public television and condemn this senseless attack.George Bush and his
> > regime used this as one of many to infiltrate a sovreign nation with no
> > basis whatsoever. The small extremeists group found in Iraq that did
> support
> > Al Quieda were in fact in Kurdish territory. A terroitory we protected.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nicholas Burlakoff" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> >
> >
> > > I fully agree that people are more significant than artifacts.
Although
> > > people have been known to give their life to preserve cultural
> treasures.
> > I
> > > am also in full agreement that the 150 children released from prison
are
> > > probably glad to be out (if they survive and are not orphans-a
difficult
> > > fate in some countries). But, how about the hundreds of burned and
> maimed
> > > children who are suffering in hospitals that have no water or
> electricity
> > > and were allowed to be looted by folks who cam to "help" ? What did
> these
> > > kids do to deserve their fate-support Al Quida, produce weapons?
> > > N. Burlakoff
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Lisa Moellering
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:18 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> > >
> > > Agreed - I think Deb Fuller is the one voice of reason in this
> discussion.
> > > I too feel a loss as to these treasures - but there is something much
> more
> > > important than artifacts and books - people. Our troops have done a
> > > magnificent thing here - I would bet the 150 children released from
that
> > > prison value their freedom much more than an artifact - I think some
> > > perspective is needed here.
> > >
> > > Lisa Moellering
> > > Curator of Collections/Registrar
> > > Holocaust Museum Houston
> > > 5401 Caroline Street
> > > Houston, Texas 77004
> > > 713.942.8000 x110
> > > 713.942.7953 (fax)
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf
> > > Of michael russell
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 9:49 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [Iraq looting - blaming the troops - CNN article]
> > >
> > > Thanks. About time we heard from the other side of the equation.
> > >
> > > Deb Fuller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > I know this isn't a political forum but that last article from CNN
> really
> > > cheesed me off and I really feel I need to say something.
> > >
> > > In summary, the US troops were blamed for not stopping the looting of
> the
> > > museum in Baghdad.
> > >
> > > To quote one of the US commanders, "We're not a police force." (Not in
> the
> > > article.) The military isn't a police force. They aren't trained to be
a
> > > police
> > > force. They're trained to stop the enemy which they have done. Looting
> is
> > > EVERYWHERE and there's just not enough tanks or troops to keep
> everything
> > > safe.
> > >
> > > These guys have been on the go for 3 weeks. They haven't had showers,
> used
> > a
> > > real flush toilet or probably gotten more than 4 hours of sleep a
night
> in
> > > those 3 weeks - not to mention spending many weeks before that on high
> > alert
> > > ready to move at a moment's notice. They've been shot at; they've seen
> > their
> > > friends shot. They're extremely on edge because they don't know if the
> > Iraqi
> > > in
> > > civilian clothes coming towards them wants to thank them or blow them
> up.
> > > Right
> > > now, the average solider probably cares more about getting a home
cooked
> > > meal,
> > > a hot shower, wearing something that isn't all shades of sandy brown
and
> > > getting a full night's sleep in a real bed than stopping someone from
> > > filtching
> > > a really old clay tablet. I can't really say that I blame him.
> > >
> > > There are still pockets of resistance in Baghdad and the troops don't
> know
> > > what
> > > traps were laid by Saddam's troops as they fled. And up until Sunday
AM,
> > > they
> > > were still looking for 7 POWs. 4 are still MIA.
> > >
> > > Tanks and troops can't be everywhere nor is it their job. I could
start
> > > asking
> > > where are the UN troops who's responsibility it is to do this, but I
> just
> > > won't
> > > go there. If the decision comes down to protecting the US troops in
> > Baghdad
> > > or
> > > protecting a museum that's one of hundreds of buildings being looted,
> > where
> > > do
> > > you think the tanks will go? My guess is that human lives are a bit
more
> > > important than artifacts.
> > >
> > > The US troops freed the city and turned it over to the Iraqi people.
> THEY
> > > are
> > > the ones doing the looting. It is THEIR fault for destroying their own
> > > artifacts. The US gets criticized for trying to revive colonialism and
> > > control
> > > Iraq. So we live up to our original assertion of turning control of
Iraq
> > > back
> > > to the Iraqi people. Now the troops are getting blamed for NOT
> controlling
> > > the
> > > people. You can't have it both ways. Don't blame the troops for what
the
> > > Iraqi
> > > people have done of their own free will. Once things die down,
hopefully
> > > cooler
> > > heads will prevail and people will start returning the artifacts and
> > > rebuilding
> > > the museum. But again, it will be up to the Iraqi people to do so, NOT
> the
> > > US
> > > or any other outside group.
> > >
> > > Sorry again for venting but that article was way out of line.
> > >
> > > Deb
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
> > > http://tax.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > =========================================================
> > > Important Subscriber Information:
> > >
> > > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
> > > http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/
> > > . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by
> > sending
> > > a
> > > one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of
> the
> > > message should read "help" (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message
> to
> > > [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> > "Signoff
> > > Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > =========================================================
> > > Important Subscriber Information:
> > >
> > > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
> > > http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
> > > information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail
> > message
> > > to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> > "help"
> > > (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message
> to
> > > [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> > "Signoff
> > > Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > =========================================================
> > > Important Subscriber Information:
> > >
> > > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
> > > http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
> > > information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail
> > message
> > > to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> > "help"
> > > (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message
> to
> > > [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> > "Signoff
> > > Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > =========================================================
> > > Important Subscriber Information:
> > >
> > > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
> > http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
> > information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail
> message
> > to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> "help"
> > (without the quotes).
> > >
> > > If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message
> to
> > [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
> "Signoff
> > Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> > >
> >
> > =========================================================
> > Important Subscriber Information:
> >
> > The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
> http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
> information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail
message
> to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
"help"
> (without the quotes).
> >
> > If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message
to
> [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read
"Signoff
> Museum-L" (without the quotes).
> >
>
>
>
>
=========================================================
Important Subscriber Information:
The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes).
If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).
|
