Were they stolen or simply
uncovered at a time when there was no great national
pride in such things?

italy has always held great national pride in her cultural property. she is
one of the few countries that have produced masterpieces that have withstood
the test of artistic time and have been the foundation of western fine art
and culture.

if it is proven that the items in question are allegedly 'looted' - meaning 
exactly that - stolen
or removed illegally. italy has had laws on the books for some time 
regarding this issue.

again i don't care what country of origin if transferred, stolen, etc. 
outside of the law and proper channels - regardless of how many generations 
have owned it - many cases have come up - for example jews and others 
claiming holocaust era stolen artworks - some were sold since, and the 
purchasers thought they had proper title. do they go back if not legally 
aquired? yes.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Indigo Nights" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] Elaborating Further on the Potential Theft


> Isabella wrote:
> However, with all due respect, to me the view has an
> element of paranoia in it. The fear expressed is an
> exaggeration. It seems to imply that if repatriation
> is instituted, it will cause an unceasing list of
> claims for repatriation. It also seems to hold by
> that, that all foreign objects in museums around the
> world are going to be claimed!
>
>
>
> It may seem paranoid to you, but I don't feel that
> way.  First it was Italy, and the case to be judged in
> its own merits.  But, with the chiming in of Greece in
> short measure, it certainly gives cause for concern.
>
> Yes, I will acquiesce, it is an exaggeration, a
> worst-case scenario.  Nonetheless, if the precedent is
> set, chances are, there will more and not less claims
> for repatriation.  I personally don't think all
> nations will claim them, but there will be nothing to
> stop nations who are hurting for money or who disdain
> the country holding the treasures who want what is
> theirs back.
>
> I read your post earlier and had time to reflect.  I
> thought of artists who, in their own lifetimes,
> weren't regarded as having any worth.  Things they did
> were considered of no real consequence in their own
> time, but now that they sit in an institution and have
> a big dollar value attached to them, now they are
> wanted to be returned to sender.
>
> I separate theft, outright stealing of treasures, in
> this regard from those claims of simple repatriation
> (a la it was made here, it belongs here).  We all have
> probably heard of the Antiques Roadshow dumpster
> divers who jump in a can after someone else has purged
> their wares and come out with a plum Jack Horner would
> be proud of.  There is no provenance to those
> treasures (and most probably they are the real
> exception), and yet that doesn't mean they are not of
> worth.
>
> We need to be careful not to judge the transactions by
> today's lightening speed capacity to exchange
> information.  I'm going to separate the artifacts
> claimed by the Getty, Italy, and Greece.  I don't know
> their histories or their exact worth.  But do we know
> the history of how the artifacts came to be in
> possession abroad?  Were they stolen or simply
> uncovered at a time when there was no great national
> pride in such things?
>
> Goodness, we have people who were stolen from other
> continents and with them came their treasures housed
> now in museums.  Do we repatriate them?  Are we guilty
> accomplices of that thievery?  What of the theft of
> the land of others?  Whether it's Native American
> lands stolen during the conquest by our country or
> through the Trail of Tears or countries abroad that
> were conquered by marauders from other nations, do we
> return to sender all treasures?  The Goths, Visigoths,
> Normans and more invaded the territories of other
> lands and took with them booty they claimed as their
> own.  Seems to me that if we take this to a Biblical
> sense, all treasures should be returned to the Garden
> of Eden (smile).
>
> I think real caution needs to be exercised here.  I
> also know that in many areas, there's anti-Americanism
> being expressed for political reasons of which most of
> us are aware.  That should not be the excuse of
> snatching things that were paid for with real dollars.
> I do not know that to be the case in this regard, but
> I await the evidence to see what comes forth.
>
> If you've ever seen the King Tut exhibit, are you an
> accomplice to the theft of the tomb's treasures?
> After all, you put down money to see something that
> was stolen in the first place.  I know, this seems
> another exaggeration, but really, where does it stop?
>
> I don't think all nations will claim "their
> artifacts".  But if precedent is set, a nation
> asserting a claim should be honored no matter which
> continent from whence they originated.
>
> I see I'm not completely alone in these concerns, and
> I will be interested in learning the outcome.  Here,
> in the US, we have all heard of "the robber barrons"
> who built great empires in ways that may not have
> seemed ethical by today's standards.  But pulling
> treasures from the museums that documents those
> histories seems hardly fair.
>
>
>
>
> Indigo Nights
> [log in to unmask]
>
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