All,

  Colin is correct the hardest stuff to get is our own materials. We have
began a policy of trade uniform for uniform. For example, if we want a US
Army uniformed used in Bosina. We will trade a new set of uniforms for the
old ones. Captured enemy gear is easily.  US Army regulation 608-4 provide
guidelines on what soldier, sailors and airmen can bring back as war
trophies.  In many case items confiscated end up bring sent to our museums.



-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Macgregor Stevens [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I am very concerned! - military items


Relax. Museums gladly accept items both as issued to the military person and
as captured. Looted civilian items acquired in wartime such as a civilian
painting are a different matter. Drawing a line of distinction is hard at
times and there are grey areas. Common sense needs to prevail.
As a colleague pointed out at the Canadian War Museum, upon the signing of
an armistice, a nation usually surrenders title to its weapons.

Documentation as to when and where the items were acquired is very desirable
for documentation and general research purposes. Our museum's donation form
includes a statement saying that the donor is the legal owner.

The military of all nations "write off" items such as uniforms quite
quickly. Items lost in battle are also "written off". Here are two examples:

1. A Canadian built Ross rifle that was issued to a Seaforth Cadet in
Vancouver, BC, Canada circa 1914. He later joined the Seaforth Highlanders'
72nd Bn CEF and went away to the Great War (1914-1918), came back home and
found that he had forgotten the rifle in his closet. He tried to turn it in.
The army had changed to a new type of rifle by this time and they told him
to get the d#####d thing out of there! He kept it and many years later
donated it to the Seaforth Museum. We were delighted to have it since all
the rest had been "returned to stores" many years before.

2. In 1943 my father was transferred to the Essex-Scottish Regiment (a
Canadian unit then stationed in England) as a replacement officer. His
batman found a Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk. III* rifle that had been brought back
by one of the Essex Scottish's wounded soldiers from the Dieppe Raid (1942
Aug 19). My father took it to the armourer sergeant. The army had changed to
a new model of rifle by this time. The fellow put it in a vice, stamped the
double arrow mark on it
-><-
(indicating released from service) and threw the rifle in a corner. My
father pulled rank, and had the Sgt. help him repair the rifle. My father
then carried it in training and when he was later attached to No. 4
Commando. He carried it on the raid(s) in France and then when he was
wounded and discharged himself, he kept the rifle and bayonet.

You should also be aware that many officers purchased their own uniform,
binoculars, webbing, map cases and weapons.

Many returning servicemen were discharged with their uniforms. An example is
a friend of mine who came back from the Viet Nam War in 1972. I acquired
virtually all of the items he wore in combat with the USMC Force Recon and
donated them to the Canadian War Museum as he was one of the thousands of
Canadians who joined the US military as individuals and served in that war.
The uniform is presently on display in the Canadian War Museum I believe.

One of the problems for military museums is that they often have a good
selection of captured weapons, but frequently lack adequate examples of
their own side's weapons. Why? Because the enemy weapons were captured or
surrendered, but one usually had to turn one's own weapons in. As a military
museum curator I found it a difficult but important task to acquire examples
of weapons used by our own soldiers. Modern types can be issued to Canadian
Forces Museums but older models have disappeared from the system.

Some interesting exceptions are some of the secret agents I have met who,
for security reasons did not have to 'sign for' their weapons and kit. One
S.O.,E. agent kept her pistol and an MI-9 agent kept the gold watch that had
been given to him by MI-9(the British WWII escape organization).

Colin Macgregor Stevens,
Curator,
Burnaby Village Museum,
Burnaby, BC, CANADA

[log in to unmask]


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Chuck Stout
> Sent: August 21, 2000 11:20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: I am very concerned!
>
>
> I'm glad this subject came up. What's the legal situation with
> U.S. military stuff that former servicemen have kept since thier
> discharge? Do they own it, legally, or is it still owned by the
> government? Is there a statute of limitations? I'm not talking
> about tanks or jet engines--more like flight jackets, flare guns,
> headsets, survival kits, or junked equipment "found in the trash."
>
> What about war trophies? (If a pilot retrieves the altimeter from
> an enemy airplane he shot down, does he have title to it?)
>
> Since ethical museums are careful about provenance, can they
> accept such items from the veterans who "liberated" them? Can a
> museum get in any trouble if things like that find their way into
> the collections? Can the museum cover its (figurative) backside
> by requiring donors to state that they legally own what they
> intend to donate? Are potential donors frightened away by having
> to make such an assertion?
>
> I'm sure many on the list have dealt with these situations. How
> did it work?
>
>
>
> Chuck Stout
> Exhibits Design and Development
> Denver Museum of Nature and Science
> (Formerly Denver Museum of Natural History)
> 303-370-8364
> [log in to unmask]
>
> ===================
> Important Subscriber Information:
>
> The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message
to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help"
(without the quotes).

If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to
[log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff
Museum-L" (without the quotes).

=========================================================
Important Subscriber Information:

The Museum-L FAQ file is located at
http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed
information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message
to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help"
(without the quotes).

If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to
[log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff
Museum-L" (without the quotes).

=========================================================
Important Subscriber Information:

The Museum-L FAQ file is located at http://www.finalchapter.com/museum-l-faq/ . You may obtain detailed information about the listserv commands by sending a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "help" (without the quotes).

If you decide to leave Museum-L, please send a one line e-mail message to [log in to unmask] . The body of the message should read "Signoff Museum-L" (without the quotes).