And so begins the copyright discussion...



On Jun 1, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Nina Simon wrote:

> Perhaps we will print out and post the email thread for visitors to the museum to read!
> 
> Seriously, this has been a really interesting discussion. I'll update you all in August when the show opens with what we did... or you can come to Santa Cruz and see for yourself. 
> 
> Be well,
> Nina
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 1, 2012, at 10:06 AM, Jennifer Snyder wrote:
> 
>> I can't believe y'all managed to fill my inbox with a discussion on
>> collecting dirt.
>> 
>> On 6/1/2012 12:48 PM, Randy Little wrote:
>>> Why would Photo's of illegal object be any different then having the
>>> illegal objects?  The curators know's its Illegal and I am thinking
>>> already in jeopardy of misprision.  As is everyone on this list now
>>> that we know she knows about this very illegal activity.  Being asked
>>> how to avoid prosecution of the law can very easily make everyone here
>>> in violation of misprision at the federal level.   A FELONY ON US as
>>> well as Nina (in the US of course)
>>> 
>>> Randy S. Little
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Jacob Hildebrandt<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>>> As someone who was starting on an art project that involved international
>>>> dirt samples, I would like to thank everyone here for the advice.  I guess I
>>>> will have to go a different route...
>>>> 
>>>> As to the actual issue at hand, as a viewer I would say photographs of the
>>>> collection would be the next best thing to actually having the objects.  I
>>>> usually prefer reproductions, but in this case I think something would
>>>> definitely be lost.
>>>> 
>>>> --Jake Hildebrandt
>>>> www.jakehildebrandt.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:03 PM, lucysperlin<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Many years ago my former museum mounted an exhibit on the same topic…why
>>>>> people collect. It included children’s collecting, collecting for monetary
>>>>> increase, collecting for sentiment, collecting for perceived beauty, and a
>>>>> bunch of other aspects of collecting.  One section (pertinent here) was
>>>>> titled  “Illegal Collecting”…..it pointed out what it is illegal to collect
>>>>> and offered alternatives such as photographing said items.  I wonder if you
>>>>> could show part of her collection (the part that was legally collected).  It
>>>>> certainly would be interesting to most people to think of soil as something
>>>>> illegal to collect.  In fact, I think that it is fairly important to address
>>>>> illegal collecting in such an exhibit…..
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lucy Sperlin
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Nina Simon
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:23 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you to everyone for the thoughtful comments on this. It's clear that
>>>>> there are several issues to consider and I really appreciate those who have
>>>>> pointed us in some clear directions on this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> With regard to the questions about the goal of the exhibition and why we'd
>>>>> want to show the dirt, here's the story:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Santa Cruz Collects is an exhibition that explores the following big idea:
>>>>> the things we collect say a lot about who we are as individuals and as a
>>>>> community.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> We're including collectors of all kinds - one of the top collectors of
>>>>> American flags, a university special collection, a woman who collects dryer
>>>>> lint, a man whose entire collection was burned, etc. The story is really
>>>>> focused on the WHY of collecting as well as the unique ways that people and
>>>>> institutions acquire, manage, display, and dispose of their collections.
>>>>> We're linking this both to pop culture (hoarding) and to the basic question
>>>>> of why and how museums do the work they do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In this context, the dirt collection is fascinating. The collector has a
>>>>> great story about why she feels compelled to collect this dirt as mementos
>>>>> of her work around the world, and of course, the legal issue is part of what
>>>>> makes it interesting. To many visitors, the idea that dirt could be illegal
>>>>> is bizarre--but allows them to grapple with deeper questions about why
>>>>> certain collections should or should not be acquired or displayed. The
>>>>> questions that David and others have brought up are exactly the kinds of
>>>>> questions we would want to explore with visitors.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> We may not show it--frankly, your responses are pushing us towards not
>>>>> doing so. But I do think it tells an interesting and useful story in the
>>>>> context of what we are trying to do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nina
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 31, 2012, at 11:45 AM, BECKER, DAVID wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is the goal of the exhibit? If the goal is to show differences in
>>>>> dirt from around the world, then dirt can be obtained through legal and
>>>>> ethical means.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If the exhibit is about collection and the collecting process, what is the
>>>>> message that the museum wants to send about the collection process and how
>>>>> does this particular collection fit in? It could be the basis for an
>>>>> interesting discussion about the ethics of collection. Those questions could
>>>>> be raised through other representations of the collection or through other
>>>>> collections? Does the full collection need to be physically present in the
>>>>> museum?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I personally don’t agree with calling it art as that was not the intent of
>>>>> the collection or the collector, i.e. it was not done by an artist with an
>>>>> intent to make art for a stated artistic purpose or message. To call it art
>>>>> for convenience sake is not in keeping with the artistic discipline that
>>>>> calling it art would represent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I guess I see it as a bigger issue than has been presented in the initial
>>>>> e-mail.  If this naturalist had illegally transported a cultural artifact
>>>>> without permission would that be o.k. to display? If this naturalist had
>>>>> transported the hide or fur of an animal that had been killed illegally,
>>>>> would that be ok to display?  When I go to a nature center, there are signs
>>>>> that tell me to take only pictures, and not take anything else with me:  Is
>>>>> it ok for me to ignore those signs for the sake of my personal collection?
>>>>> Would this same naturalist condone this same behavior if was going to be
>>>>> conducted on a larger scale by 100 people, or by 1000 people, or by
>>>>> everyone?  I think there are issues and considerations here that go beyond
>>>>> the issue of whether it is legal or not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave Becker
>>>>> 
>>>>> Senior Manager of Learning Experiences
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chicago Zoological Society
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Pickering, Bob
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:51 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Whether the dirt is dangerous or not, isn’t there an issue of displaying
>>>>> material that is known to be illegal? Does calling it “art” absolve the
>>>>> museum of responsibility?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Robert B. Pickering, PhD
>>>>> 
>>>>> Director of Curatorial Affairs&  Public Programs, Gilcrease Museum;
>>>>> 
>>>>> Director, Museum Science and Management, University of Tulsa
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1400 N. Gilcrease Museum Rd
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tulsa, OK  74127
>>>>> 
>>>>> (918) 596-2706 Office
>>>>> 
>>>>> (918) 596-2770 Fax
>>>>> 
>>>>> (918) 805-4780 Cell
>>>>> 
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Nina Simon
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:07 AM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: [MUSEUM-L] exhibiting illegally-obtained dirt?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This one is for the museum lawyers and collection management gurus out
>>>>> there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> For an upcoming temporary exhibition on collections, we would like to show
>>>>> a collection of vials of dirt that a local naturalist collected on her
>>>>> travels around the world. The challenge is that much of this dirt was
>>>>> transferred into the US illegally (i.e. from countries where they are strict
>>>>> about making sure that organic material doesn't enter or leave the country)
>>>>> or was obtained with some trespassing (i.e. from celebrities' yards). She is
>>>>> nervous about exhibiting the dirt in public for this reason.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> My sense is that if we can call this art, it might not be a problem.
>>>>> Frankly, I don't think it's a big problem period - there's no real risk or
>>>>> danger to the dirt - but I want to learn more about how to address this
>>>>> issue. Do you know anyone who might have some expertise to bear in this
>>>>> arena?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nina
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nina Simon
>>>>> 
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> 
>>>>> Santa Cruz Museum of Art&  History
>>>>> 
>>>>> 831.429.1964 x7018
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Come visit us at 705 Front Street in Santa Cruz
>>>>> 
>>>>> Get involved at www.santacruzmah.org or on Facebook
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
>>>>> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=MUSEUM-L&A=1
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe from the MUSEUM-L list, click the following link:
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>> 
>> --
>> Jennifer Snyder
>> Assistant to the Executive Director
>> Packwood House Museum
>> 15 North Water Street
>> Lewisburg, PA 17837
>> 570-524-0323
>> www.packwoodhousemuseum.com
>> 
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