I just wanted to reply that from my perspective and knowledge of the
colonial to civil war period in Virginia, which includes history and
material culture, and in almost 20 years experience at Colonial
Williamsburg, that I still think that these objects found within the
wall at Mount Vernon belong more to a history or architectural
collection.

I well appreciate the thoughtful comments of my archaeological
colleagues on the list.

The discovery of objects within walls in historic buildings here in
America is a fairly common occurance - and there are various theories
as to the genesis of this phenomenon.

I would respond that Mount Vernon is a house that has been
continuously occupied and that it does not in any way comprise a
"ruin" or an abandoned structure. There is an extensive historical
record - and even in a period in which the plantation owners kept
detailed records of the operation and management of their plantations,
George Washington was even more obsessive about leaving a written
record of his purchases and management issues than most of his
contemporaries, including Thomas Jefferson. Also there has been
extensive architectural research both of Mount Vernon and other great
houses that are contemporary to it by architectural historians. There
has also been an extensive dendrochronolgical database that was
complied by Dr. Jack Heiniken that covers most of the surviving
historic structures in Virgina and Maryland. So with the weath of
information of these sources and specialists I rather doubt that the
artifacts in question could really contribute any more detailed
knowledge as to the construction date of the wall - although they
could certainly confirm it, or even more possibly indicate the likely
date of a later rennovation. The original posting from Gretchen
indicated that the objects had already been removed - so this was most
likely done and documented by non-archaeological means. So there may
be photographs and sketches but not likely precise measured and
recorded data in three dimensions as to the placement of each
individual object.

Yes, this is an assembledge and should always be kept as such, but
it's doesn't have a context other than to the built architecture and
not to a site formation or features as is the usual currency of
archaeological investigations.

It has been my experience that architectual historians and curators
(and to some extent architectural conservators) are the experts in
researching, managing, and interpreting a built and intact structure
such as Mount Vernon, and that archaeologists bring their expertise to
bear in examining cellars, root cellars, builders trenches, and the
adjacent historical landscape that is usually below ground or may be a
ruin above - such as in the case of the Page mansion Rosewell in
Gloucester county Virgnia that was destroyed by fire.

Since I have been invovled in architectural conservation as well as
objects and artifact conservation for the past several years I still
have yet to find an archaeologist invovled in the various issues in
either architectural investigations or treatment with the exception of
the grounds around the structures. As a matter of fact I found a
newpaper fragment visible inside of a wall when doing a borescope
study of a landmark 1920's building here in Southern California (we
left it in place).

I am sure that we will each hold our opinions strongly but I did want
to give my colleagues on the list more context of my thoughts behind
my original statement.

Cheers!
Dave

David Harvey
Conservator
Los Angeles, California

On 8/16/06, Cheryl Straker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I remembered that this topic has been discussed often on the historical
> archaeology listserv, HISTARCH. If you subscribe you can search the archive.
> Cheryl
>
> Cheryl J. Straker
> Curator of History
> Ohio Historical Society
> 1982 Velma Avenue
> Columbus, OH 43211
> [log in to unmask]
> www.ohiohistory.org
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Museum discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Pamela Silvestri
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:42 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Objects found within walls
>
>
>
>
> I agree. The data has been recorded and/or can be reconstructed for use in
> an archaeological study. In this case at hand it appears that the data which
> was collected is consistent with an archaeological investigation. If the
> data has yet to be analyzed, it may be wise to categorize it as
> archaeological. If not,  l also stress what you said Trevor of course - to
> cross-reference associated materials and flag them for study.
>
> As you have noted Trevor- not all archaeological remains and features are
> below ground. Typically, an historic structure is more likely to be
> considered 1st for an archaeological investigation if it is, 'standing
> ruins'. During which of course data will be collected to be used to analyze
> the architectural features...and so vice-versa if the direction of the study
> was 1st, the architectural for which archaeological remains were found.
>
> Although datable artifacts may be helpful in determining the age of the
> wall...it will be a variable date. Datable artifacts are determinants for
> terminus post quem and terminus ante quem dating of the deposition of the
> artifact(s)...therefore the archaeological find may predate or postdate the
> wall by numerous years. The only way to more closely date the wall in
> association with the artifacts would be to prove that the deposition of the
> artifacts occurred along with the construction of the wall.
>
> Pam
>
> In a message dated 8/15/2006 10:10:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
> I'm afraid that I would have to disagree with David on this one.  Walls
> are capable of being archaeological features whether they are above or
> below ground.  If you have the records of exactly where they have been
> found then you can treat them as archaeological objects.  And of course
> like finds in any archaeological feature they can help date the wall in
> which they were found.
>
> However I don't think it matters too much which collection they are in
> provided they remain associated with the information about how and where
> they were discovered.
>
> Trevor Reynolds
> Collections Registrar
> English Heritage 3 Bunhill Row, London EC1Y 8YZ
> postal address English Heritage 1 Waterhouse Square, 138 Holborn, London
> EC1N 2ST
>
>
>
>
> Pamela Silvestri, Seasonal Interpretive Guide
> Northeast States Civilian Conservation Corps Museum
> Connecticut State Department of Environmental Protection
> State Parks Division
> Shenipsit State Forest Headquarters
> 166 Chestnut Hill Road
> Stafford Springs, Connecticut 06076
> Telephone: (860) 684-3430
> e-mail: [log in to unmask] or
> [log in to unmask]
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