Can I make a suggestion?  Oh, hell, I'm going to do it
anyway.

With all due respect, Dr. C, you're not going to move
off your position on this, and nothing anyone has said
has been able to move you from that steadfast
position.

By the same token, because of the prolonged nature of
this discussion, steadfastness seems to be growing on
the other side of the discussion.

If neither side moves off of center, the discussion
will, and has been, going nowhere.  There are far too
many factors that go into this, not the least of which
is cultural and subjective.  All sides of the cultural
equation are, for their geographic locale, absolutely
right while potentially invalid elsewhere.  

While it's fun to watch a real dog in real life chase
it's tail, after a while, we bore with it and move on.
 This metaphorical dog seems to have been chasing its
tail for days on end with no respite in site.  Time to
give it a little prozac, give it a rest, and
potentially move to a topic where concensus can be
achieved or someone's real needs met by providing
constructive suggestions.

Debate and hypothese can be absolutely valuable. 
After a fashion, however, it's like fingernails and
chalkboard.

This is not to say that any party is conceptually
wrong; I'm not in a position to judge that.  It's just
that, for my money, the thread, and its several
metamorphoses of title have probably run their course.


--- "Dr. Christian Müller-Straten"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Sir,
> 
> I remember a short information in this list
> previously spread saying
> that only 50% of all mails were understood while
> readers claimed to
> understand about 90%. I do not intend to answer
> aggressive and
> vulnerating mails. The first mail in this thread was
> referring to two
> museums in the US leaving object descriptions up to
> visitors. I also
> stored it. I was also argueing against the proposal
> to have unauthorized
> tours in museums (using ipods or other pocket PCs).
> I keep on saying
> nothing else but object descriptions have to made by
> the museum itself
> and that it is up the decision of the museum
> director if he/she allow
> unauthorized group tours. In many countries and many
> museums of the
> world they are forbidden. This is my last remark on
> this matter.
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
> 
> "Eugene Dillenburg" <[log in to unmask]>
> schrieb:
> Dear Dr. C:
> 
> This is, I believe, the third time you have referred
> to the "duties" of
> museums under ICOM.  I have been to the ICOM
> website, and am having
> trouble finding these "duties."  Yes, they define
> museums as places
> that
> interpret
> and educate.  
> 
> But I'm not seeing any language that describes HOW
> museums are
> to accomplish these tasks, nor any section that
> prohibits involvement
> of
> the general public.  
> 
> I did NOT say that. I was always pledging for the
> integration of all
> interest in order to formulate true descriptions.
> Why do you always try
> to misinterprete my mails?
> 
> 
> If you could direct me to the passages which you are
> referring to, I would be greatly appreciative.
> 
> Also, this is I believe the third time you have
> stated that others on
> this
> thread have proposed doing away with the expertise
> of the museum
> specialist,
> and turning over all interpretation to the lay
> public.  I have
> carefully
> read these threads many times.  (Indeed, I have
> copied the posts onto
> my
> computer for future reference, as they are quite
> relevant to some
> projects I
> am working on.)  But I cannot find any instance of
> anyone proposing
> that
> museums do away with educated experts and
> specialists and replace their
> work
> with public comment.(The very first post in the
> "community curators"
> thread referenced a journal article which described
> museums
> collaborating
> with the public, not "yielding" to it.  
> 
> The first posting was referring to two museums 
> 
> And the Wikipedia tangent was not a
>  proposal that museum follow that model, but rather
> an example showing
> that
> using an open source system to tap in to distributed
> knowledge need not
> result in "anarchy.")  Again, if you could point out
> which posts
> promoted
> public interpretations INSTEAD OF museum
> interpretation (as opposed to
> "in
> addition to"), I would be most grateful.
> 
> Finally, inching back toward the subject at hand, I
> believe the topic
> of
> "unauthorized tours" began as a comment on the new
> phenomenon of "iPod
> tours."  I was a little bit shocked, though I guess
> not really
> surprised, to
> learn that some museums still try to control
> information.  But, as the
> news
> media, corporate PR departments, political parties,
> and other
> "gatekeepers"
> of knowledge have learned, the Internet has thrown
> open those gates.  I
> suppose one could resist -- banning iPods in the
> galleries, perhaps --
> but
> only at the risk of becoming draconian, alienating
> the audience, and
> having
> to do it all over again in 18 months when the next
> new technology
> becomes
> available.
> 
> It just so happens that a new book on this very
> topic is being released
> today: "An Army of Davids" by Gelnn Reynolds.  It
> describes how the
> Internet
> empowers ordinary people to share information and
> bypass the
> traditional
> gatekeepers.  Whether one celebrates this phenomenon
> or bemoans it, it
> is
> here, and we'd best figure out ways to make it work
> for us rather than
> against us.
> 
> Eugene Dillenburg
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:30:00 GMT, "Dr. Christian
> Müller-Straten"
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> >Dear Diane,
> >
> >I do see these differences - I try to understand it
> and I am always
> >getting back to different philosophical
> backgrounds. On the other
> hand,
> >also North American Museums are members of ICOM.
> ICOM defines very
> >clearly the duties of each museum worldwide. This
> was agreed also by
> >North American Museums. But more and more I see
> differences of
> >interpretations of these common ICOM views. For
> example, with regard
> to
> >a real scientific museum  definition (Declaration
> of Calgary), it has
> >been mostly the European museologists defending a
> museological real
> >definition of "museum" and not the old functional
> description of
> >"museums" defended mostly by the North American
> Museums - being
> nothing
> >else than a mission statement.
> >On the other hand we also have a few people here
> influenced by North
> >American thinking always being very keen to propose
> everything
> anarchic
> >(today even possible by digital information) as the
> better model. But
> >this has nothing to do with democracy. In a
> specialized society, we do
> >have specialized museums, museum specialists,
> specialized narrators
> and
> >educators, etc. As I have mentioned before, they do
> good to include
> >input from the outside. But during the discussion
> of the last weeks,
> two
> >ideas/proposals of INSTEAD were made. Equality and
> fairness has to be
> >included by the specialists themselves. But do not
> forget that also
> >equal rights in a democracy are limited. I am
> avoiding to repeat the
> >"Nazi example" mentioned.
> >
> >Best regards
> >
> >
> >Christian
> >
> >
> >
> >"Diane Gutenkauf" <[log in to unmask]>
> schrieb:
> >Dr. Christian Müller-Straten:
> >
> >It isn't about BETTER, it's about DIFFERENT.
> Perhaps this is a
> >particularly American attitude...something arising
> from the American
> >notions of equality and fairness that formed early
> in our Colonial
> >period
> >and are strongly held today.
> >
> >Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners) wrote a
> fascinating book defending
> >American etiquette and exploring the social and
> political milieu under
> >which many of our modern attitudes arose.
> >
> >I highly recommend it as a tool for understanding
> why the Americans on
> >this list are more open to "outsider"
> interpretations than are the
> >Europeans.
> >
> >
> >Diane G.
> >
> >On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 21:28:00 GMT, "Dr. Christian
> Müller-Straten"
> ><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >>"Jeremy" <[log in to unmask]> schrieb:
> >>Hi Darryl,
> >>
> >>Just to clarify, I am entirely in favour of
> >>'unauthorized' tours. I was using the term simply
> to
> >>distinguish them from the official tours produced
> by
> >>museums themselves.
> >>
> >>Jeremy.
> >>
> >>Dear Jeremy and rest of the list,
> >>
> >>Before getting into another discussion about a
> wonderful chaotic
> idea,
> >I
> >>would like to remind all in favour of unauthorized
> tours that such
> >group
> >>tours by real persons from the outside are
> forbidden in many museums
> >>allover the world to prevent the worst (just
> imagine Nazis conducting
> >>unauthorized tours in European former
> concentration camps and
> >memorials)
> >>and protect the right of work of their own
> interpreters. Have you
> >>forgotten the conflicts with the museums missions?
> >>
> >>Why always thinking that outsiders are better than
> the staff? Is the
> >>staff in US museums really unable to do a good
> job? Have they lost
> >their
> >>inventive power, their creativity, their
> scientific impetus? Why
> >always
> >>being in favour of something totally anarchic?
> >>
> >>I am satisfied with ordinary work done well. For
> me as a longtime
> ICOM
> >>member it is up to museums to care for the
> objects, inform, to
> >>interprete, to combine education with
> entertainment. This can
> nowadays
> >>only be done knowing the vested interests of the
> visitors. If they
> >don'
> >>t do it for any reasons, they loose the right to
> be called "museum".
> >>
> >>Sorry to be that rigid again, but I do not esteem
> the background of
> >>these proposals.
> >>
> >>Best regards
> >>
> >>Dr. Christian Müller-Straten
> >>
> >>Verlag Dr. Christian Müller-Straten / MUSEUMS
> AGENTUR
> >>Kunzweg 23, 81243 München, T. 089-839 690 43, Fax
> -44
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> >>
> >
>
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> >--
> >Dr. Christian Müller-Straten
> >
> >Verlag Dr. Christian Müller-Straten / MUSEUMS
> AGENTUR
> >Kunzweg 23, 81243 München, T. 089-839 690 43, Fax
> -44
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Christian Müller-Straten
> 
> Verlag Dr. Christian Müller-Straten / MUSEUMS
> AGENTUR
> Kunzweg 23, 81243 München, T. 089-839 690 43, Fax
> -44
> Mails werden mit täglich aktualisierter
> PANDA-Software geprüft.
> [log in to unmask]
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> expect 2 million hits.   
> 
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